Retract Top Failure

[GeoffInCarlsbad]

Convertible Top stopped erecting half-way up. This has not been an issue for a year, but there must be an electrical short in the lines somewhere.

I was able to lower the top back into the trunk (raising works as well) by running a line directly from a 12v source, in this case my battery, to the pump and top solenoids. Pictures below.

Top Stopped halfway up:



Jumpers to Top Solenoids. Listen for the click when connecting:



Quickly attaching to Yellow Wire to retract top:



I can now pull the car into the garage and begin to diagnose where the circuit is failing using multi-meter and continuity light.

[simplyconnected]

...I can now pull the car into the garage and begin to diagnose where the circuit is failing using multi-meter and continuity light.

Yes, using sound troubleshooting practices is the correct plan.

Why do you think there is a short circuit? Is your car tripping circuit breakers or blowing fuses? Do you see a huge voltage drop in your lighting circuits? Do you see sparks or smell anything burning?

Just because the top stops is a classic limit switch problem. When you jumpered the motor etc., you also shunted around all the limit switches and the overcurrent protection. That only proves the motor still works.

I suggest you scrutinize your limit switches. Work each of them (violently) dozens of times. Limits can work loose and move so make sure they are positioned correctly for proper operation.

If you need help with the schematics, please ask. - Dave

[jopizz]

I recommend doing as Dave suggested and check the circuit breakers first especially the main one on the starter solenoid. I've had trouble with that one in the past. It's unusual for it to stop in the middle of the cycle unless it's tripping one of the breakers due to too much load or a weak breaker. Also make sure your trunk lid is all the way back so it's contacting the limit switches. Sometimes it will start to close when the top is going down.

John

[GeoffInCarlsbad]

Progress on the top

Yes, using sound troubleshooting practices is the correct plan.

Why do you think there is a short circuit? Is your car tripping circuit breakers or blowing fuses? Do you see a huge voltage drop in your lighting circuits? Do you see sparks or smell anything burning?

Just because the top stops is a classic limit switch problem. When you jumpered the motor etc., you also shunted around all the limit switches and the overcurrent protection. That only proves the motor still works.

I suggest you scrutinize your limit switches. Work each of them (violently) dozens of times. Limits can work loose and move so make sure they are positioned correctly for proper operation.

If you need help with the schematics, please ask. - Dave

Hi guys:

Thanks, Dave, I have the schematics from both the shop manual and the Jim Osbourne Convertible Top Maintenance and Repair guide, so I think I am good on documentation.

I am not smelling any burning, drop in lighting circuits not blowing fuses. I don't see any fuses in the line for the convertible wiring, but I do see the multitude of circuit breakers in the diagrams and in the vehicle.

Since it quit midway through the top erect cycle, I tend to lean toward a circuit breaker being tripped somewhere. I went to each of them, and cleaned the terminal/connections to ensure nothing was loose and I'm getting solid connections. For some reason, the circuit breaker failed to reset for 2 days, I just don't know which one.

After some rudimentary jiggling, cleaning and tightening, Lo & behold, the top did start to work again. I cycled it down, and the trunk lid closed, then cycled it up. Top erected to the full position, but the trunk lid would not drop. I can hear clicking, and at this point I expect a limit switch issue.

I cycled the top back down, and it retracted properly and the trunk lid closed about 2/3's then quit. I waited about 10 seconds, tried the switch again, and the lid closed properly.

So there is a breaker somewhere that's getting reset. Just have to determine which one, as well as check the limit switch issue.

[simplyconnected]

Yes, using sound troubleshooting practices is the correct plan... ...If you need help with the schematics, please ask. - Dave

Perhaps I should have been more explicit. If you need help reading the diagrams or understanding relay logic, I can answer any questions you might ask.

Hi guys:

Thanks, Dave, I have the schematics from both the shop manual and the Jim Osbourne Convertible Top Maintenance and Repair guide, so I think I am good on documentation.

I am not smelling any burning, drop in lighting circuits not blowing fuses. I don't see any fuses in the line for the convertible wiring, but I do see the multitude of circuit breakers in the diagrams and in the vehicle... ...So there is a breaker somewhere that's getting reset. Just have to determine which one, as well as check the limit switch issue.

The Osborn diagrams will show where your breakers and limit switches are located.

Since nothing is burning I doubt you have a short circuit so when the top stops, immediately jumper around the circuit breakers, trying them one at a time.

When looking at the circuit diagram, notice the top system is divided into two portions; the control side and the power side. Meaning, pushbuttons and limit switches control relay coils using very low current. Relay contacts control the motor and any high-current components.

Applying this knowledge, you can manually 'test' each function by transitioning the relay contacts as you watch the action. So, if a relay does not energize, check voltage at the coil. If none, trace that branch back through the preceding switches, back to power. This is a 'sound troubleshooting practice'. Do not let anything sidetrack this method or your thinking and you will find the culprit(s).

You only need a test light and maybe two jumpers to prove the whole circuit. - Dave

[GeoffInCarlsbad]

Deck Lid/Flip Lid Motor

I have deduced that the issue with the Truck Lid not closing when erecting the top is that the Deck Lid Motor (or I also see it called the Flip Lid Motor) is not working.

I do get 12v to the 4 prong connector, and I can hear the Tray Retract Relay "click" once the Top Erect Limit Switch opens the circuit to the appropriate relay. So I believe the relay is just fine, the voltage to the motor is correct. I surmise the issue is with the motor itself. If I press the Tray Retract Limit Switch, then the Trunk Lid proceeds normally to close.

I am having trouble sourcing the correct part 15B659, as my usual suppliers do not seem to have any available for a reasonable price.





Anyone have a reliable source? These list from $125 rebuilt (Pat Wilson's, but he's out of them) to $350 (Bob's Bird House New)/$295 Rebuilt.

~g

[Joe Johnston]

In addition to following the diagnostics in the top manual, I have found 3 things necessary when working on my 63SR - be it top, lights, windows, or seats.

1-first thing to do is to run a ground wire with alligator clips from the battery ground to the motor or solenoid that is suspect. Good grounds and clean bullet connectors are mandatory. Often it is as simple as a bad ground causing the problem.

2-unplug the motor and hot wire it to see if it will work in each direction. Gotta know if its good or not before going further. Your motor may be good but unless you run it on the workbench or hot wired in the car, you don't know for sure.

3-nothing is available at a "reasonable price"

[jopizz]

Joe is correct about testing it separated from the harness. You need 12V to two of the three hot wires for the motor to run in either direction (green & red or green & yellow). Also don't forget to check the circuit breaker on the ground wire.

John

[GeoffInCarlsbad]

Pics of Test Bench

Hi guys:

Thanks for your responses. So, to valide/in-validate my methodology, I am posting pics below showing how I made these tests. I think this is how I did it for my Rear Window motor, but that was last summer and didn't document well, so here is what I am doing now:

Here is the manual reference I am following:



Here's my first test. I am bringing power to both the Black and Green terminals, and appying the circuit to the White wire to the Yellow. Note the GREEN light on the panel of the Power Supply. Is this correct?



My next test was putting the power to the RED lead to see if the motor engaged. Note it shorts out the power supply (as it protects itself).



Note, also ran the same tests with Black (normally to the circuit breaker) disconnected with the same results.
Per my original post below, I conducted tests on the harness at the deck lid. I tested whether I was getting ample 12v at the harness when the Top Erect Limit Switch was opened with a fully erect top. I can hear the relay "click" and I get voltage to the harness mounted on the trunk lid. So I believe I am getting proper power to the harness at the motor mount.

Is this correct? If not, what should I be doing differently to make sure I am testing this correctly?

[jopizz]

According to the bottom picture you have the negative going to the red and the positive to the green. That is wrong. You need the negative (black) going to the black wire on the motor and the positive (red) going to the red AND green for the motor to turn in one direction and the yellow AND green to turn in the other direction.

John

[GeoffInCarlsbad]

OK! thanks for the correction!

According to the bottom picture you have the negative going to the red and the positive to the green. That is wrong. You need the negative (black) going to the black wire on the motor and the positive (red) going to the red AND green for the motor to turn in one direction and the yellow AND green to turn in the other direction.

John

Perfect! I will go try that right away.

[GeoffInCarlsbad]

Black to Black Red to Green/White

John:

Thanks for the correction. I have re-configured to the correct way: Black to Black, Green & White to Red (power) to complete the circuit.



As soon as I attach power (RED) to Green, the power supply shorts, but I can hear a clicking in the motor, which is what I heard when I originally was debugging this issue, and the motor was still mounted on the truck lid. I heard the relay click, and then the motor click, but it won't spin. Since I was getting power to the harness it led me to believe that I do have a motor issue.

Since I corrected my wiring, I have re-created the same environment with the result of the motor not working.

Do you concur?

[jopizz]

Yes, it sounds like the motor is defective. Let me look around here and see if I have any.

John