Engine replacement

[KULTULZ]

I have searched for and sourced many parts for the 430 Transmission and it definitely is different than the FE version. Of course the internal calibration is different, but a quick check of the MPC in the MX column will show many if not most of the internal parts are different than the FE, not only in Part # but in size when the dimensions are listed.

Carl

Carl,

When you go to the APPLICATION CHART under 60S, how many differing trans options are listed under the heading? There are three in my MPC and all are identified as MX. Now it only stands to reason that a 430 MX is built stronger than a 352 MX. FORD isn't (wasn't) going to waste money where it did not have to.

Now if you cannot accept that both engines are MX equipped, although calibrated differently, then there is no further use in discussing the matter.

The original question was would the 430 (rated @ 350HP) MX go to the 352 (rated @ 300 HP) and the answer is yes.

Prefix PBL and PBB tells you from the get-go that they are built differently

Another statement was posted that the 60S 352 came with an FX. It did not.

It is not worth the argument to me. You guys post whatever you desire.

[orwin]

430 Transmissions - the plot thickens

Hmmm...

Further study of the Ford master parts book and VTCI specification book section 7.3.6 shows the part numbers for the '60 AT's as:

352-4v Cruise-O-Matic/MX PBL 7003-AH or PBL 7003-AG
430-4v Cruise-O-Matic/MX PBL 7003-M or PBL 7003-AF

That would imply they are all MX's just as KULTULZ says.

However, in the VTCI book there are also several photos and refrences to the HX used with the 430 (both 59 and 60).

The data tag is missing on my tranny but the case is 10-7/8" which matches the size for an HX.

Can anyone shed more light on this? Were HX transmissions used in some 430 birds? If it was a "field replacement" by a tranny shop sometime in the distant past, wouldn't there be a problem with the driveshaft length? Seems I'm not the only one with an HX.

[KULTULZ]

However, in the VTCI book there are also several photos and references to the HX used with the 430 (both 59 and 60).

The data tag is missing on my tranny but the case is 10-7/8" which matches the size for an HX.

Can anyone shed more light on this? Were HX transmissions used in some 430 birds? If it was a "field replacement" by a tranny shop sometime in the distant past, wouldn't there be a problem with the driveshaft length? Seems I'm not the only one with an HX.

Now this is a very interesting find and one I have not had the funds (to buy period FORD publications) to verify.

When LINC went from HYDRA-MATIC to a BW designed trans in 1955, I have no documentation as to what exactly that trans was. I have long suspected it was the period MERC-O-MATIC Single Range.

When FORD redesigned the FORD-O-MATIC to the CRUISEOMATIC in 1958, LINC was a little behind. It's TWIN-TURBO Dual Range was released later in the model year (predecessor TURBO-DRIVE) . The case size was also uniue to the 58/60 HX as the 61 redesign was larger). I am wondering if there is a missing link in the MERC-O-MATIC design that was used solely on LINC after the MERC-O-MATIC Dual Range redesign. I would think the MOM would have a little trouble standing up to the 368CI LINC ENGINE.

So much for day dreaming.

In the LINC-MERC MPC (60/64), HX is cataloged under MX and the text points out the PN differences.

If the HX was actually used, it must have been the 59 model run as there is no mention of it in the 60/64 FORD MPC (that I have noticed).

BTW- There are two cases listed for the 60S MX, one a FORD PN (PBL) and the other a MERC PN (PBB). But there is also a unique FORD FX case listed also.

VTCI?

[YellowRose]

Engine replacement

VTCI book - Vintage Thunderbird Club International (VTCI) Official Factory Specifications (OFS) book or CD. Written by people who also happen to be members of this Forum, for that matter. Alan Tast, Past President of VTCI, "Fuz" Johnson, Alexander Sosiak, Lou Paliani, Immediate Past President, VTCI, and more contributed to the 1958-1960 Squarebird Official Factory Specifications. If you are a Squarebird owner, and do not have the OFS, you should. I happen to have a spare CD copy if any one needs one. PM me for details.

Alan Tast is one of the worlds most premier person of knowledge when it comes to our Tbirds. If you do not have his books on the Tbird, you should have! Nuff said...

[partsetal]

I don't doubt that the 430 and FE transmissions are both MX. My contention is that they differ in more than internal calibration. For example, The 430 bell housing will bolt up to the FE, and it is the same depth. It will not however bolt up to the FE transmission case. The 430 cast iron case is not quite 1/2" longer than the FE case. The 430 tailshaft housing is longer than the FE tailshaft housing (Both 60 Thunderbirds) and it will not bolt up to the FE case. Look also at the oil pans and the filters. You can easily source the filter for the 352 Trans, but you would be lucky to even find a used filter for the 430. The pan gaskets are also different.
Carl

[KULTULZ]

partsetal

I apologize for yelling (raising my typing). I have been ovulating these past few weeks and am on edge...

You are on to something and I am glad you brought it to my attention...

I don't doubt that the 430 and FE transmissions are both MX. My contention is that they differ in more than internal calibration. For example, The 430 bell housing will bolt up to the FE, and it is the same depth. It will not however bolt up to the FE transmission case. The 430 cast iron case is not quite 1/2" longer than the FE case. The 430 tailshaft housing is longer than the FE tailshaft housing (Both 60 Thunderbirds) and it will not bolt up to the FE case. Look also at the oil pans and the filters.

You can easily source the filter for the 352 Trans, but you would be lucky to even find a used filter for the 430. The pan gaskets are also different.

Carl

I now see what you are saying. Just the filters for instance- There is one for the small case FX, another for the medium case MX and now you are saying there is another filter similar to the felt covered filter as used in the 61/65 TWIN-TURBO.

FX- B9AP 7A098-B (Prefix Third Character A= FORD Corporate)
FE MX- B9MP- 7A098-B (Character M= MERCURY)
430 MX- B9SZ 7A098-A (Character S= TBIRD)

Even the 430 MX has it's own main case- C0MP 7005-R. Now this is a MERC PN so it must have been a heavier MX that was used in the MERC line also.

OK. I am now a believer. I need to source a 49/59 FORD MPC, an early MERC and LINC MPC.

Anything else you have to offer is greatly appreciated.

Again, please excuse my rudeness.

Gary

[60 T-Bird]

It wasn't my intension for the thread to wander off so far from engine switching to transmission types...ok not so far as they are bolted together. I have decided to pursue the 430.

[KULTULZ]

It wasn't my intension for the thread to wander off so far from engine switching to transmission types...ok not so far as they are bolted together.
I have decided to pursue the 430.

Well, I for one am glad it did wander as I learned something I didn't realize before.

I am also glad that you decided to retain the 430 even though the expense is more but I have an idea you are going to smile on that first mile...

[JohnG]

So back to Square One: what are the major obstacles to rebuilding one of these, in terms of cost and also availability?

I'm looking at this from a hypothetical point in the future where some new person has just bought a Squarebird (or considering such a move) with a 430 and wants to know what he's up against.

I rebuilt my 352 FE 5 years ago and parts were absurdly easy to get, so I don't know what you guys face.

John

[KULTULZ]

(IMO)-

Parts are fairly easy to get other than the correct pistons. The other problem is finding a machine shop that is familiar with one.

[partsetal]

I did a rebuild on a 430 several years ago. Fortunately I was able to use the standard pistons. The cams were not available at that time and I had the original reground. The crank did not need to be cut, and I only had a valve job done, no inserts. I used an old time machine shop that I had used before, and bought many of the parts through normal auto parts sources. I don't have the total cost figures.
As a quick guess, I would say the 430 rebuild should be in the same price range as the FE with the exception of: Oil pump if you use the vacuum pump attached to it, pistons if you need them, Camshaft which I understand are now available but expensive, and perhaps a few other parts.
Does buying the kit make sense? I'm not sure, and I was hoping to hear from someone who had gone that route.
Through some diligent searching I'm sure there is a cheaper way to search for the mechanical parts needed for a rebuild. You probably don't need all the parts in the kit. Why buy 16 valves if two are burned and the remaining 14 can be refaced? Why buy the rocker shafts if the old ones are within spec? I see that the firm offering the kits also sell timing chain and gears at a price much higher than you could buy the cloyes or melling components at Auto Zone or Rock.
Shop around, work with your machine shop and get involved in the parts purchasing. That, I believe is the way to keep the rebuild costs down.
Just my humble thoughts!
Carl

[YellowRose]

Engine replacement

I moved this thread to the 430 MEL Engine Forum because I believe this is where it should be because of the discussion subject. It has been a useful discussion and I think there has been much learned about the 430 MEL engine and tranny.

[KULTULZ]

It has been a useful discussion and I think there has been much learned about the 430 MEL engine and tranny.

Including controlling my demeanor...

Listen, the oil pump that takes the vacuum pump is available @ EGGE (rebuilt or new) and OREGON CAMS is a nice guy to talk with regarding regrinding to a more modern profile.

[ncbird]

lincoln 430's for sale

found this craigslist ad and thought it might help someone. two 430's for 500 bucks

http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/ank/pts/1844131899.html

[KULTULZ]

Further study of the Ford master parts book and VTCI specification book section 7.3.6 shows the part numbers for the '60 AT's as:

352-4v Cruise-O-Matic/MX PBL 7003-AH or PBL 7003-AG
430-4v Cruise-O-Matic/MX PBL 7003-M or PBL 7003-AF

That would imply they are all MX's just as KULTULZ says.

However, in the VTCI book there are also several photos and refrences to the HX used with the 430 (both 59 and 60).

The data tag is missing on my tranny but the case is 10-7/8" which matches the size for an HX.

Can anyone shed more light on this? Were HX transmissions used in some 430 birds? If it was a "field replacement" by a tranny shop sometime in the distant past, wouldn't there be a problem with the driveshaft length? Seems I'm not the only one with an HX.

I am having trouble now with the VTCI manual (although I am not familiar with it). It lists the 430 BIRD trans as PBL (by orwin). PBL identifies the FE MX of the period. PBB identifies the 430 BIRD HX of the period.

Not only did BIRD use the HX (59/60), but it appears MERC did in the same period. I am assuming an MX could not stand up to the 430..