Maiden Voyage of my 61T - Oh No!!!!

[Guest]

The engine has been removed and pulled down. So far the news is all bad and multiple problems hove been found. I'm waiting for the full extent of the situation. Watch this space....

Mark

[simplyconnected]

How bad can it be, Mark? FE engines have full-floating wrist pins and they are notorious for wearing out the connecting rod brass bushing. Still, once the rod is out, press in a new brass bushing, hone it to the size of your piston's wrist pin and bore/de-burr the oil hole.

I did that on Penelope's 390 I've built. Actually, I was on the fence about it and my engine machine shop owner talked me into new bushings. I'm glad he did now, but at the time I thought differently.

FE engines are very unique and not easy to 'catch all the nuances'. Many times I scratched my head wondering why they did certain things, but at the end of the build, it all makes sense.

FEs are great 'old school' engines and can be adapted to just about any service. Ford put them in just about all their cars and light trucks for decades.

Without exaggeration, millions of them were produced in the Dearborn Engine Plant (DEP), and the castings came from four plants over, at the Dearborn Iron Foundry (DIF). Crankshafts and camshafts came from the Dearborn Specialty Foundry, also one of the 17 plants in The Rouge. 'Ever notice that 'F' on the heads of your bolts? Yep, Ford cold headed them in the Rouge next door to the DEP. Quality was easy to track because all these components were produced within walking distance. 100,000 workers came to work every day in The Rouge. They even have their own hospital with a full-time staff of doctors and nurses, and a central fire department.

[Guest]

Hi Dave.

How bad can it be? I took the car to the current mechanic because my retired Ford mechanic did have a hoist to work on it. So the new bloke pulled the transmission to check if the noise was in the torque converter. Then he pulled the motor out and completely dismantled it. I got a call from him last night telling me that it needed a compete rebuild.

My original mechanic spent a day and a half watching what was happening and came to the conclusion that this new bloke didn't understand old Ford motors and was going overboard. He's now taken the motor home and will rebuilt it himself. He told me (and remember this motor had done 2500 miles tops):

Scoring in two cylinders. There is two thou clearance and he will hone all of the cylinders

New bearings - the other mechanic didn't bother to mark which bearing came off which rod
New timing chain as the old one was OK but a bit loose
Machine the heads - the valves look good but he will turn the the heads upside down and fill them with kerosene to check for leaks. Harden valve seats are already fitted
New head gaskets - old ones were 'very hard'
Properly clearance the rings
New lifters - the current ones are quite worn. Appears that they were not changed during the last rebuild

He has suggested the noise may have been related to a head gasket problem. One test he didn't make at the time was to pull the radiator cap off to see if it made a difference to the noise.

The motor was fitted with manifold gaskets. He will remove them and machine the surfaces.

All this and there is still no clear reason for the noise....

[simplyconnected]

...The connecting rod bushes were all fine although it appears that the lifters weren't changed in the previous rebuild. The motor is still with the mechanic. He is having all the moving parts balanced before he reassembles it...

Lifter faces usually 'dish' to the contour of the cam lobe. Recently, the cam lobes wear prematurely because of the absence of zinc and phosphorous (ZDDP) in modern oil.

Either way, the rocker/pushrod/lifter/cam valve train shortens or wears looser. These are hydraulic lifters that compensate for lash adjustment unless they get to the end of their rope. Now, your symptoms make sense. Some of our members nailed it, too.

When the valve train is new, we set the initial depth of a pushrod into the lifter while the cam is on 'base circle'. This is called, lifter preload (not to be confused with spring tension preload). It is simply, how deep the rocker arm pushes the lifter's plunger down from the 'full-up' (resting on the C-clip) position.

How far down? Usually cam and lifter companies recommend, .020"-.030".

In 'production engines', every engine is new and each part is held to very strict tolerances, so OEMs can produce rocker arms with no adjustments. Old valve train parts are worn. When you start milling heads, blocks, etc., and using non-OEM head gaskets, lifter preload needs to be adjusted accordingly.

I get a kick out of folks who think they can save lots of money by doing the bare minimum on an engine overhaul. Most of the cost is in the detail you cannot see, so slap new parts in and let's get paid because it's good enough.

Consider weight-matching all the pistons (with gudgeons and keepers) on a good balance beam scale. Then the rods need each end weighed separately and accurately because one end of the rod runs in a circular motion while the other end runs linear. Then all the rods with bearings and bushings need to be weight matched. Then match them again as a piston & rod assembly.

Crankshaft balancing machines need to know these separate weights with a set of rings, then they add three ounces of oil to determine bobweight vs counterbalance weight. THEN they spin the crank for dynamic balance (meaning the imbalance on each end simultaneously).

This is only the rotating assembly portion of how we properly build an engine. Labor costs using precision instruments doesn't come cheap. When aftermarket pistons and/or cam are used, if different ratio rocker arms are used, piston-to-valve clearance MUST be checked after the heads are installed. Again, more labor time. If the tolerance is too tight, your pistons will bend the valves or do worse damage to a brand new overhaul. Any engine builder who assembles and runs without checking is incredibly naïve.

Some mechanics won't overhaul a short block. Instead, they buy crate engines, made on an assembly line with new parts.

I hope your engine is done properly and lasts a very long time. Glad to hear you found the knocking was caused by a simple lifter that couldn't pump up at idle oil pressure. - Dave

[Guest]

Dave

Thanks for that very comprehensive reply. The motor is now completely balanced and is about the be reassembled. The heads have been done and the valves and manifolds are being machined today. The mechanic told me that early 390s have a button on the end of the cam to keep it under load. This was missing from my motor and it has taken him a bit of time to find one down here in Oz. Could this have been the source of the noise? There was no evidence of it in the pan when the sump was pulled off the first time or when the motor was completely disassembled.

Cheers
Mark

[jopizz]

Dave
The mechanic told me that early 390s have a button on the end of the cam to keep it under load. This was missing from my motor and it has taken him a bit of time to find one down here in Oz. Could this have been the source of the noise? There was no evidence of it in the pan when the sump was pulled off the first time or when the motor was completely disassembled.

Cheers
Mark

Mark,

If you look at post #65 I suggested this as a possible cause of the noise. I guess now we'll never know. You're very fortunate to find one. I looked for quite awhile before I found one for my '59. The only other option was to install a thrust plate as others have done.

John

[Guest]

John

Well spotted! The mechanic needed to spread the net wide to find a thrust button down here. He could only get a second hand one but he didn't want to install a thrust plate if he could avoid it. Do you think running a motor without that button could cause that type of noise?

Mark

[jopizz]

Mark,

I imagine if the camshaft wandered out far enough it would cause all sorts of noises. I would rather not find out. Was the spring missing too or just the button. Were there any signs of anything hitting the inside of the timing cover. I guess the rebuilder simply overlooked installing it the first time around or he didn't know what it was and left it off.

John

[simplyconnected]

...He could only get a second hand one but he didn't want to install a thrust plate if he could avoid it...

Mark, I think you're going in the wrong direction. There is a good reason Ford doesn't use the button and spring.

I suggest you install the thrust plate. When you do, many more parts will become available for your engine like a true roller timing set.

I suggest you pop for a new cam, thrust plate and roller chain set. Your engine guy will need to drill and tap two holes but they are very easy to do with the engine apart. - Dave

[Guest]

Hi Guys

I went over to inspect the motor today. During the last rebuild the thrust button, spring and plate were not installed. There's one possible reason for the noise. The other problem was that the surfaces between the head and block were not well machined and water was getting into one of the cylinders. The head gaskets were good. Oh, the ring gaps were in line in two of the cylinders. Maybe the reason it was smokey?

Every surface has now been machined and all moving parts were balanced. The valve seats have also been machined as they were slightly pitted. My mechanic does not believe that this motor had only done 2500 miles. We are waiting for the thrust button to arrive and then the motor can be reassembled. Every other part has been checked and meticulously cleaned. The oil pump was a high volume one and and I gave him the new replacement pump I had.

Dave, I asked the mechanic about installing a thrust plate but he was against the idea. He reckons it's not necessary given the amount of miles I will do in that car. He assures me that once the motor is back together I will not have any problems again.

[simplyconnected]

Mark, the top two piston rings are designed to rotate. So having them align is common. They will not remain that way for long.

Valves are designed to rotate as well. Here's the problem; the materials used in valves back in the day, welds itself to the exhaust seat because unleaded gas causes little hot spots. When the valve opens again it breaks the weld and rotates. After millions of times of this, the seat recedes. We now use metals that will not weld together. That's why new seats and stainless valves are installed in modern heads. If you're comfy with that, then end of story.

Regarding thrust plates: FE engines went through changes over the years. One of them was a cam change in 1963. If you look for FE cams pre-'63, not many are available. Later ones are VERY available and at competitive prices. The difference? Thrust plate models vs button. Ford dropped the button and spring, and so did nearly every aftermarket supplier. I'm trying to keep your options open but if you want original parts that Ford hasn't made in many years, end of story. 1964 True Roller Double Row Timing Sets cost nearly 1/3 of the money. Conventional chains last about 60,000 miles. True Rollers last >3X that long.

You have the engine apart and it's your dime (and also your choice). - Dave

[Guest]

Hi Guys

I'm picking the TBird up tomorrow. It's back together and running beautifully I'm told. The noise is gone, hallelujah! but there is still no definitive reason it was there in the first place. The mechanic found the oil pump shaft to be very tight and this, combined with a missing thrust button on the cam was probably the reason why it clattered on idle. It looks as though a kit was put through the old oil pump rather than replacing it with a new one. It now has the proper pump and the correct oil pressure.

By all accounts the rebuild job 2500 miles ago was crap. I emailed the previous owner to let him know how things were going and he took my message to the mechanic who did the work initially. Naturally, this bloke 'couldn't understand why there was a problem as he did all the work he was paid to do'. Sounds like he did a lot less than he was paid to do to me.

Anyway, it's marvelous what a huge of money can do for a car. At least with the weather warming up it should get a lot of use and I've got 9 months of time make up.

This has been quite a saga.

Mark

[jopizz]

Mark,

I'm glad you're nearing the end of this story. Unfortunately buying classic cars is a crap shoot. Unless you have personal knowledge of what work was done and by whom you really are taking a chance. That's why you have to factor these potential problems into the purchase price. Especially when you are buying a car long distance. The old adage is still true; "Buyer Beware".

At least you'll have fun making up for lost time and money.

John

[yellow98cobra]

Now get out and drive her. After a few thumbs up and a couple nice car's, you will forget about all the troubles. On our way home from a car show a couple of weeks ago even my wife finally admitted she liked the car (maybe it was the attention).
Eric

[simplyconnected]

...buying classic cars is a crap shoot. Unless you have personal knowledge of what work was done...

John makes a good point for folks who do not wrench. Everyone is different.

I buy cars with the intention of tearing the engine down. Short of having cracked castings, I don't care about the condition or who owned it because I'm putting the good stuff in. I'm not paying top dollar for the initial cost of the car.

You are doing the same thing only from a different and unexpected attitude. Sorry you are having extra expenses and problems BUT, when these cars are restored correctly, they are unparalleled in beauty, function, enjoyment and all the value you should expect from a classic Ford car.

That cam button is very important as it keeps the cam centered for the lifters and it affects spark timing. A good mechanic would have questioned the fluctuation in timing as he did the tune-up, especially on an engine with low hours. I have never seen (or heard) an engine the button was left out of. Omitting it will cause those unusual noises you experienced. I cannot imagine replacing a timing cover with parts missing from the cam assembly. Honestly, that's why I do my own work.

As John said, I'm also glad you're back on the road with your troubles behind you. - Dave