Replaced Master Cylinder

[GeoffInCarlsbad]

Thanks

I spoke with Oreilly and they have them there. I am picking them up in the morning. I'll let you know how I make out.

Mr. Yadkin, thanks, for pointing that out. I work very hard to stay true to the Shop Manual; but obviously there are exceptions.

Thanks to both you of you for hanging in there.

If I can get past this, then I can focus on the "pulls to the right" issue.

[simplyconnected]

Let's put things in perspective. If you have a mechanic work on your front brakes they will change shoes on both sides. They may even replace the drums, all for a cost (of course).

You changed your M/C but I'm not convinced you set up the brake pedal rod and the booster output rod properly. (Remember my suggestion of using a piece of American cheese?) I didn't hear discussion regarding 'bench bleeding', either.

When we spoke over the phone you tried pulling the upper shoe springs with Channelocks. You said the springs pull hard and they return as they should, indicating the springs are not overheated. You also said the shoes return smoothly when the pedal is depressed and released. Prior to this you said the M/C was good.

Drum brakes are very 'low tech' and when done properly they are very predictable. Ford didn't make the booster, shoes or the drums, Bendix, Inland, Wagner and other vendors did.

We try to help you but we depend on everything you say to be a fact. As we find things 'ain't necessarily so' (like the bushings), we are all led down the wrong path.

Still jerks to the right.

Later, you posted:

...Car pulls to the right when braking. There is a slight fade if a press gently to a hard pull the harder I apply the brakes. Also, it feels like the Right Front wheel is grabbing and turning until is locks up under a hard press...

Ok, which is it? The car used to 'snap' and violently pull. These quotes do not indicate that at all.

Regardless, you have changed your suspension so that part is now correct. What direction are you headed, do you intend on moving forward? If not, all this discussion, time, money and work will be a moot issue as soon as you retrofit.

I did my brake conversion in ONE Saturday. I mounted all my devices (hardware) in the morning then I piped the whole car in the afternoon, using bending and flaring tools from Harbor Freight.

If you have all the parts (including disk-ready wheels) and tools for the job there is no reason you can't do the entire job in one weekend. I'm considering plenty of time for breaks and a slow working pace.

There is something wrong with two experienced mechanics who required three days to do this retrofit. I'd like to see their write-up, please. Send it to: simplyconnected@aol.com

Geoff we are here to help answer your questions to give you a better understanding of how and why things work. Our members have done the work you are doing now with T-Birds just like yours. Many problems may be unique but your setup was successfully used on millions of cars.

In closing, many of our members never did a brake conversion before. Larry Noska and Marcelo both come to mind. Larry is retired from AT&T and Marcelo works for a wine company. Both did an even nicer retrofit than a mechanic would because they took special care of their own cars and they didn't cut corners. There is no reason why you can't as well. - Dave

[Yadkin]

I spoke with Oreilly and they have them there. I am picking them up in the morning. I'll let you know how I make out.

Mr. Yadkin, thanks, for pointing that out. I work very hard to stay true to the Shop Manual; but obviously there are exceptions.

Thanks to both you of you for hanging in there.

If I can get past this, then I can focus on the "pulls to the right" issue.

I found through pure luck, since I was looking at my 1964 manual. As John pointed out, earlier models had shorter springs and used the closer hole. My theory is that parts for the early set-up is no longer available.

My first car was a '72 Ford with front discs, rear drums and I found working on the discs so much easier.

[Yadkin]

Interesting, so all this time, it could simply be that the shorter spring to the top hole does not pull the Primary shoe back fast enough?

So I need to find a longer spring to run to the lower hole? Can you tell me if that is the same length as the secondary shoe to anchor spring?

BTW, I deleted my rant. Regardless that I tried to keep emotion out, I feel that I violated the nature of the forum by expressing such frustration. But, thank you both for sticking with this.

The only logical conclusion I could see was either the clogged brake lines or the springs.

I don't think its pulling it back far enough. Try the new spring kit as others mentioned. Don't use pliers- that's an exercise in pinched fingers or worse. Use KD Tools Automotive Bendix Drum Brake Spring Tool Model # KDT280 to remove and install the springs. O's should have one.

[jopizz]

If I can get past this, then I can focus on the "pulls to the right" issue.

If your right front brake is not releasing your car will naturally "pull to the right". I think the problem is one and the same.

John

[GeoffInCarlsbad]

Some Final Thoughts

At this point, I am trying the spring replacement route. I have got the springs from a kit, and will work on doing those later this week.

I also brougth the vehicle to another shop this morning to have them have a look to see if there is anything else do be done to alleviate the shoes not retracting. Backplate grooved? Collapsed hose? Bad Line?

As for the pull to the right, there seems to be confusion over "pull" vs. "snap" vs. "jerk". All this this happens depending on the pressure applied to the brake.

As I previously described, a gentle "tap" or applicaion of the brake pedal cause immediate "drift/fade/pull" to the right. The harder the pedal is depressed, the harder the "snap" or "jerk".

So if I really hit the brake short of a panic stop, the wheel "snaps/jerks" to the right, and when I release the pedal, the car very quickly "snaps/jerks" to the left in to a straight alignment. this makes driving rather precarious.

I hope that clears the air on that, and I hope this spring suggestion works out.

Again, thank you for your help. Very greatly appreciated. You guys are awesome, and I would not have learned what I have learned with out your experiences and wisdom, and putting up with my mundane ane repetitive quesitons.

I'm out.

[scumdog]

The pull to the right seems to be purely because that particular brake is working properly and the left one is not functioning as it should. My 2-cents worth.

[jopizz]

The pull to the right seems to be purely because that particular brake is working properly and the left one is not functioning as it should. My 2-cents worth.

The right front overheats and locks up to the point where he can't spin the wheel. That's not working correctly. If the springs don't alleviate the problem then I suggest you do as I mentioned earlier.

1. Loosen the nuts on the master cylinder and pull it out slightly. If the wheel releases then you need to adjust the push rod.

2. Open the bleeder on the wheel cylinder and release some fluid. If the wheel frees up then you know it's a hydraulic problem and not mechanical.

John

[Yadkin]

As for the pull to the right, there seems to be confusion over "pull" vs. "snap" vs. "jerk". All this this happens depending on the pressure applied to the brake.

As I previously described, a gentle "tap" or applicaion of the brake pedal cause immediate "drift/fade/pull" to the right. The harder the pedal is depressed, the harder the "snap" or "jerk".

So if I really hit the brake short of a panic stop, the wheel "snaps/jerks" to the right, and when I release the pedal, the car very quickly "snaps/jerks" to the left in to a straight alignment. this makes driving rather precarious.

A slight amount of pull will happen with drums unless you have both sides adjusted the same. But as you described, plus the heat and dust issues, this is far beyond "normal".

[GeoffInCarlsbad]

I have to do the experiments John mentions.

Once I get the springs on and adjust the brakes. I'll do as John suggests.

[simplyconnected]

Without a physical inspection this problem will always pose unanswered questions. All we can do from here is play the guessing game.

For instance, what does the RH drum surface look like, is the spindle bent, etc. I would need to see and feel it for myself. Physical evidence speaks for itself and it has nothing to do with opinions or feelings. 'It is what it is,' but every portion of the mechanics can be measured and tested.

How much travel do shoes really need to retract? 1/4"? 1/8"? 1/16"? 1/64"??? None of the above.

Properly adjusted drum brake shoes lightly touch the drums, to the point where a slight 'scuff' can be heard and felt. Residual valves and self-adjusters are designed to keep the shoes just off the drums as well. So, how much retract spring travel is necessary? About as much as disk pads move (without long or short springs); practically nothing, just relieve pressure.

Tom raises a valid point about both sides having equal brake-HP. John's answer is just as valid and so is his 'hydraulic relief test,' suggested over a week ago but never tried.

This problem begs for an experienced brake mechanic. BTW, good brake companies offer a written warranty that covers their parts and labor because their business reputation depends on keeping their customers happy.

As an aside, wheels do not orient on the hub, the conical lug nuts center the wheel and keep it from moving on the hub. By design, most wheel centers never touch the hub. - Dave

[GeoffInCarlsbad]

Car in shop

Hi guys:

I want to thank you all for all the thought and suggestions thrown my way on this vexing issue.

I took it into a brake shop this morning and I'm going to let some folks who can see what's going on have a crack at this. It's too hard to do from afar at this point.

I appreciate everyone's help on this.

Hopefully some local help who can eyeball this can help.

All my best to each of you.

[Dakota Boy]

http://www.squarebirds.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=10923

I had some weird issues with drums as well. See attached link above. Maybe it will be helpful. Good luck

[jopizz]

Hi guys:

I want to thank you all for all the thought and suggestions thrown my way on this vexing issue.

I took it into a brake shop this morning and I'm going to let some folks who can see what's going on have a crack at this. It's too hard to do from afar at this point.

I appreciate everyone's help on this.

Hopefully some local help who can eyeball this can help.

All my best to each of you.

I would appreciate it if you can let us know what they find.

Thanks,

John

[pbf777]

As an aside, wheels do not orient on the hub, the conical lug nuts center the wheel and keep it from moving on the hub. By design, most wheel centers never touch the hub. - Dave[/QUOTE]

This may be a good subject for a new forum topic?

I am trying not to offend anyone, so I will reframe from commenting, but, explore this a little.

This has proven a constant problem with the poor engineering of after-market wheels which do not take in account the original factory engineering intentions. Scott.