Won't START!!!

[mvonhobe]

This must be one of those Murphy's Law corollaries and it's about to cause me a coronary!
I recently replaced my starter (see other posts for THAT project!). That's ALL I did. After completing that job, I got in to see if it would work. It TRIED to start like a CHAMP. No more Rrrr...rrr...rr.
BUT, it wouldn't fire up. I checked the coil lead - nice bright orange spark. I pulled a plug and it has a nice spark. After cranking for a while, fuel spray comes out of the carb (air cleaner is off).
So it appears to be getting fuel and it appears to be getting spark.
Distributor is nice and tight so I don't think the timing would have mysteriously changed.
Hrmph!

Matthew x(
1959 Turquoise HT

https://www.geocities.com/mvonhobe/thunder

http://www.tbirdregistry.com/viewdatasheet.asp?RegistryNumber=13517

[Guest]

RE: Won't START!!!

Try cleaning and/or re-setting your points. If they are off in the slightest...or dirty.....or old.....it wont turn over............and make sure all your parts under the distributor check out. I had a 63 1/2 comet once and after tuning it up.........forgot to put the piece that rotates around under the cap back on. It took me about half an hour to figure it out.(silly fool) I had problems with my 58 doing the same.........especially after it had rained a few days. I ended up getting a petronix ignition system and never had the problem since.

[1960Bird]

RE: Won't START!!!

Matt


I agree check the points out first. If they are OK, make sure you have gas :-)



Steve Ronk
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
1960 HT 390, Edelbrock Performer RPM Intake, Shorty Headers, 2-1/2" Exhaust and 3.70 Rear Gears

[JohnG]

RE: Won't START!!!

I bought a Squarebird last spring. It started and ran very well for a short while then began to have more and more starting issues. I checked the plugs - brand new and clean. Check the points - new. Bought a dwell meter and fine tuned them. Continued to start fine sometimes, not at all other times. Felt dumb... I took a plug out and layed it on the block and turned it over, seeing a nice spark.

Finally one day I happened to check the plug GAP. It was nearly
.050 ! I have a stock ignition which requires only .032.

My theory is that whoever changed the plugs simply took new ones out and put them in as they came from the manufacturer. For a 2000 vintage ignition, .050 might be fine. For that ancient set up I have,
it was way too much once the plugs had a tad of wear on them. I also recalled that creating a spark out in the open air is not the same as in the cylinder under load.

Anyway, I set the gap and that took care of it. Best test was this January when the car started up easily at 5 below zero (no, I did not go for a ride...).

So while this is probably not your problem, my experience might save someone from wasting alot of time over a simple problem...

John - MA
58 Hardtop

[Guest]

RE: Won't START!!!

check to make sure that you did'nt leave one wire off of the solinoid.when the engine is in run mode coil is fed current through the resister,when trying to start one small wire from solinoid feeds 12volts direct to coil bridging resistor and giving a hotter spark for starting.good luck bob

[mvonhobe]

RE: Won't START!!!

I've now replaced the point, condensor, rotor and distributor cap. I still get a nice spark out of the coil wire; I still get a spark out of a plug (different plug this time), fuel is still getting into the carb. (YES, Steve - there IS fuel available!!!), and still won't fire. I don't see any wire's disconnected from the starter swap.

NICE Thunderbird....NICE Thunderbird.... :7 No, I REALLY mean it!

@#%*$&%!!!!!!!

Matthew
1959 Turquoise HT

https://www.geocities.com/mvonhobe/thunder

http://www.tbirdregistry.com/viewdatasheet.asp?RegistryNumber=13517

[Guest]

RE: Won't START!!!

The only thing I can guess now..........is that somehow your timing is off. Was the car running when you bought it ??? Sometimes the timing of these old fords "slip" if the distributor wasnt to tight. There is also a resistor on the firewall. Check your vacum advance. If the diaphragm is bad or is leaking it will cause problems. I had an old Falcon that seemed to have no power.......until my father loosened the distributor and turned it...........ran like a charm afterwards. You mentioned that you bought your car from an Estate sale. Had the car sat for a long time ?? If so the problem may be in the gas itself. Gasoline breaks down after a period of time............maybe a shot from a can of starting fluid will spark it up and over its "hump".

[Alexander]

RE: Won't START!!!

My 1959 Thunderbird did not want to start at all a few days ago. It turned out that the choke flap was not completely closed. A few adjustments with a screwdriver, and I was on my way.

I agree that timing can affect starting. Mark with chalk where the vacumm advnce of the distibutor is pointing. Loosen the 1/2 head bolt that is holding the distributor down until you can turn the distributor, but don't remove the bolt. Turn the distributor a few degrees either direction and see if the car starts.

If your engine cranks and it has both fuel and gas as you demonstrate, it should start.

Alexander
1959 Hardtop
1960 Golde Top

[1960Bird]

RE: Won't START!!!

Matt,

If you have good spark and gas it is possible it is out of time, although for you not to have it even try to start is odd. Normally unless your timing is off a mile it will at least pop and try to fire up. I am no expert on FE engines , but I can tell you where to go to find some one who is...The Fe Forum, there are some real experts on this site. Sign up and tell them the problem, I'll bet they can help. Here is the site...

http://www.network54.com/Forum/74182

Steve Ronk
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
1960 HT 390, Edelbrock Performer RPM Intake, Shorty Headers, 2-1/2" Exhaust and 3.70 Rear Gears

[1960Bird]

RE: Won't START!!!

Matt,

I didn't re-check the posts that you made during the starter saga, but didn't you mention that you either saw or smelled smoke after you got the starter in. I know almost nothing about Squarebird electrics, but, is it possible that something shorted and for whatever reason you are now not getting enough spark from the coil to ignite the fuel. If you go to the FE Forum you may want to mention this to them along, with everything you have done and replaced. Good luck.

Talk to you later...





Steve Ronk
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
1960 HT 390, Edelbrock Performer RPM Intake, Shorty Headers, 2-1/2" Exhaust and 3.70 Rear Gears

[Guest]

RE: Won't START!!!

hi
If all the electrical checks out including hot enough spark "color of spark matters" yellow bad, white good, then i might look to mean mr vacum. It bit me when i was 17 with my first 59 bird. Check all vacum related parts, generally it would have to be a pretty big leak to keep it from firing, less big and it might fire but not start and a small leak the car will still run. It is hard to find a vacum leak when not running because you might be able to hear it so you will have to spot it visually instead.
later
mark 1960 conv bird

http://hometown.aol.com/__121b_FojEKQwVtSeOHm1hQU6s5rZsDWU2xL6x

[JohnG]

RE: Won't START!!!

If it still won't start then back to basics perhaps - whether its a lawnmower, chainsaw or Lamborghini, you must have three things:
gas, spark and compression. You seem to be convinced that gas is getting into the cylinders and you probably didn't blow two entire head gaskets while parked! So that leaves us with spark - quality of and timing of.

I would want to carefully check the timing of the spark, particularly if it is somehow quite retarded (when I got my car a year ago, the last mechanic had not tightened the set bolt on the distributor so anything's possible).

You can manually check the timing without a running engine or timing light to see where you are at.

Take the cap off the distributor. Get a 15/16" socket and put it on the crankshaft. Turn slowly until you get into the vicinity of the #1 cylinder that the timing marks are set up for. (this may take more than one turn if you are not on the compression stroke). Turn the key on. Listen carefully and at the instant the points open, you will hear a little "snap" and perhaps also see a spark jump across them (best in a somewhat dark garage). This is accented a bit by the presence of 12V instead of the usual 6V during start up (see earlier
post). Peek down at the crank and see where you are relative to the timing marks on the crank shaft. You should now have a good sense of whether your timing is in the ball park or not.

The vacuum advance is not a factor in this, obviously. The mechanical advance could be if it rusted itself into an advanced position. A worn shaft with too much side play can also influence the points opening (the TBird distributor had some somewhat hidden oil orifices that often are not maintained).

At any rate, you have a chance to carefully inspect the firing of your #1 cylinder with little effort, and it may be repeated until you are convinced things are either ok or in need of work.

[pabob1960]

RE: Won't START!!!

I may be wrong but it sounds like he flooded the motor.

I'd pull the plugs, inspect and reinstall.

Hopefully it's something that simple.

If it ran before the starter change, the timing should not be off that much to cause this problem.

My two cents worth

Pabob
59 Conv

[mvonhobe]

RE: Won't START!!!

Well, guess WHAT.....

I'd replaced the starter with one SOMEBODY from this group located for me on e-Bay. It was from a marine application - no, not the military, it was off a boat motor. Fit like a glove, turned the engine like a champ.
2 months or later, I'm back in the shop looking at it, applying a multimeter to every steeeeeenking part on the mill; the coil, resistor, etc. Suddenly, as the engine is turning over, something just doesn't look RIGHT. I yanked the distributor cap off (new, along with points, condensor, and rotor) and watched the rotor go round and round and round...........clockwise.
I'll let y'all know what happens when I re-replace the starter.



Matthew
1959 Turquoise HT

https://www.geocities.com/mvonhobe/thunder

http://www.tbirdregistry.com/viewdatasheet.asp?RegistryNumber=13517

[1960Bird]

RE: Won't START!!!

Matt,

I am the one that gave you the heads up on the starter on ebay. You have to admit it was a good price;-) I never would have guessed that that was the problem, of all things. Rather then changing the starter, I believe you can change the cam and distributor gears to reverse the rotation of your points, LOL.
I am really sorry that I even suggested the ebay starter to you...the seller didn't mention that it came off a boat did he? Well, it sound as if it is about time for you to get back into the grease pit. I wish I could be there to help you.






Steve Ronk
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
1960 HT 390, Edelbrock Performer RPM Intake, Shorty Headers, 2-1/2" Exhaust and 3.70 Rear Gears