noob fuel question

[Djweaz]

Hi I am Rob and am new to this board. I have a 1959 J-code and had a couple of questions.

I knew having a J-code bird was a pretty rare car, watching a Thunderbird documentary, I was floored when they said there were only 200 J-code 430ci Thunderbirds. if that is the case, WOW! Ive found a rare one. has anybody heard of this? it was on the history channel.

The guy I got the 'bird from told me that it had another carb it wasnt working well with it. He replaced it with a Holley 750 and said that it was to big for it. That made me scratch my head as I have had quite a few built small blocks with 750 carbs, I would figure that it would work on a big block. so he replaced it with an edelbrock 650 before he brought it to me. The car runs sweet and then out of the blue it will fight to start or stall in the middle of the road(that isnt fun happened three times). First time I thought maybe the fuel gauge was off got it started and filled up the tank. I reached in turned the key no gas pedal nothing instant start which is how it normally does.Went for a 30 mile cruise no problem.next time I went to drive it for a cruise with a bunch of guys, we met up at one place and sat around when it was time it had a hard time starting once I got it started we left the parking lot and it died in the middle of an intersection, funnily enough it was the same parking lot 2 different days the first one I died in the turn lane leaving me stranded in the turn lane. The second time I turned right and died in the intersection. When we go to the next place (after I got it started) we looked at it and saw that it had about 40 inches of rubber fuel line laying on the valve cover. we figured it was vapor locking fuel was getting hot. I ran new steel line to eliminate that issue. checked the choke and it was closing properly so ruled that out. last night we all went to a cruise in. and it seemed like every time you gave it too much gas too quickly it would die out but giving it steady gas it ran fine. Again at the cruise in we checked it out. One of my friends said fuel starvation under load means spark is bad. All new wires, easiest thing to do was replace the coil. drove about 5 houses left my street and died in the middle of the road at 11pm in the country is really not a fun. pushed it out of traffic and back on to my street until I could get it started and take it back to my garage. walked out this morning reached in and turned the key over and started right up no gas just an instant crank and start. Talking to another of my friends on the phone today an old school rodder. He has several MELs and said they had a known problem with the fuel pump and its location at the front of the engine, that I should put a good electric fuel pump, not to skimp on the $30 one get the good one and block off the plate on the block. which leads me to wonder where I can get the proper plate. has anybody ever had this happen to them?

Thanks Rob

[simplyconnected]

Welcome to Squarebirds.org, Rob. BTW, your profile shows your first name as 'Djweaz' instead of Rob.

I'm going to shoot from the hip and say, many of our members were plagued by rust in their fuel tanks including myself. Rust loads the pickup screen and starves the engine for fuel. Usually, when the engine stops the fuel line 'backwashes' which opens enough of the screen to resume again until the rust loads up again.

You have an access hole in your fuel tank where the float enters. Open it and shine a flashlight down the hole. If the car sat with old gas there might be varnish down there as well.

We get new fuel tanks delivered for under $200 from rockauto.com. When I got mine, I opened the old tank and pulled five handfuls of rust out (rust has nowhere to go). The car would idle all day but as soon as I started driving, I got about a couple miles and it would die. Minutes later it started right up, then repeat itself.

I would go for the fuel pump theory but my experience is, they don't 'heal' themselves once they go bad.

As far as 'gas pedal lag' goes, that happens when your timing chain stretches (again, Rockauto.com). Your chain can alter valve timing a few degrees but it also alters your ignition timing. This can be seen with a timing light as the damper marks will be all over the map when you goose the throttle. - Dave

[Djweaz]

Thanks, Dave I will put it on my timing light tomorrow, and check that out. As far as the tank, it is brand new still bright and shiny same as the spurge tank for the radiator, brake lines and hoses all 5 tires. It was well taken care of. One thing I don't like on it is the master cylinder and possibly the power booster is from something foreign there is a metering valve from speedway to adjust pressure from front to back on the brakes. At first we thought it was because of a drum to disk conversion but it still has drums and it was a factory power brake car as the brake pedal says power brake on it.

Thanks
Rob

Welcome to Squarebirds.org, Rob. BTW, your profile shows your first name as 'Djweaz' instead of Rob.

I'm going to shoot from the hip and say, many of our members were plagued by rust in their fuel tanks including myself. Rust loads the pickup screen and starves the engine for fuel. Usually, when the engine stops the fuel line 'backwashes' which opens enough of the screen to resume again until the rust loads up again.

You have an access hole in your fuel tank where the float enters. Open it and shine a flashlight down the hole. If the car sat with old gas there might be varnish down there as well.

We get new fuel tanks delivered for under $200 from rockauto.com. When I got mine, I opened the old tank and pulled five handfuls of rust out (rust has nowhere to go). The car would idle all day but as soon as I started driving, I got about a couple miles and it would die. Minutes later it started right up, then repeat itself.

I would go for the fuel pump theory but my experience is, they don't 'heal' themselves once they go bad.

As far as 'gas pedal lag' goes, that happens when your timing chain stretches (again, Rockauto.com). Your chain can alter valve timing a few degrees but it also alters your ignition timing. This can be seen with a timing light as the damper marks will be all over the map when you goose the throttle. - Dave

[simplyconnected]

Is it a metering valve or a flow control valve? A metering valve simply restricts to a certain amount of fluid. A flow control valve chokes the line to a smaller size, so the front comes on first, then the rear shoes engage.

In any case, if you have drum/drum, there should be NO valves. BTW, stock shoes are interchangeable front to back as they are the same size on a Squarebird.

I would like to see a few pictures of your booster, master and valve. Make sure the pictures are under 800 pixels wide.
CLICK HERE for a freeware picture resizer. PNG pictures work well.

As far as ignition spark, wait until dusk and pull a spark plug wire with a spare plug in it, laying on engine metal. Crank the engine and watch the spark. It should be pretty blue with an audible 'snap'. A weak spark will be orange. - Dave

[OX1]

I tore apart the Carter on my 430, as it had a huge stumble on accel warm/cold, etc...I figured it was the ethanol gas, as that eats the inside of both the Edelbrocks I have on my broncos if not run in 3-4 months.

Turned out previous owner had timing retarded 15 degrees ATDC. Bumped that up to 7 BTDC (with vac advance plugged) and it runs much better.

Previous owner gave up on mech fuel pump and put in one of the cheap elec pumps. Seems to work fine, but is pretty noisy and was hideous in engine compartment. I moved it to frame near rear axle and insulated it from frame with 1/4 inch rubber strips (also covered it with same rubber). Now I can't hear it in normal driving.

I put back fuel pump and am going to run fuel line up under vac line for PB, then run faux fuel lines to mech pump, just for looks at the shows.

Anyway, I still have a mild, heavy accel, stumble. I'm still leaning towards timing, as I have only checked static. Still have to flesh out vac and centrifugal.

I've kind of ruled out fuel, as it would seem odd to me that there is enough fuel to do upwards of 80, but not enough fuel for even moderate heavy accel, right off idle.

[Djweaz]

Sorry I've not been on and checking my car out have been in bed all week sciatica messing up. I will get on it as soon as I can get up and get some things done

[Djweaz]

Decided to check my spark first with my inline spark tester. Orange spark = weak spark. Since the plug wires, coil Condenser points were all brand new I checked out the cap and rotor not the best I've seen but not the worst either so I got new ones plus another set of points and a Condensor just in case the cap and rotor didn't work. Put the rotor plugged the new cap in and started doing wires according to the firing or that's on the intake and online 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8. I pulled a few putting them on the new cap something seemed strange I even tried to line up the old cap with the new one and it looked like the wires were off. I thought to myself it doesn't matter I'm putting on the wires properly so it will be fine. Now I am getting no start and burping and farting out of the carb. Now I am confused lol. Do you think they were off on timing maybe and moved the plugs a position or 2 around? It ran very well before unless it in a vapor lock or whatever it is that I'm chasing and idled perfectly unless you gave it too much gas and it would die out

[jopizz]

Are you sure you are putting the wires on correctly. They need to be put on counter clockwise.

John

[Yadkin]

Decided to check my spark first with my inline spark tester. Orange spark = weak spark. Since the plug wires, coil Condenser points were all brand new I checked out the cap and rotor not the best I've seen but not the worst either so I got new ones plus another set of points and a Condensor just in case the cap and rotor didn't work. Put the rotor plugged the new cap in and started doing wires according to the firing or that's on the intake and online 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8. I pulled a few putting them on the new cap something seemed strange I even tried to line up the old cap with the new one and it looked like the wires were off. I thought to myself it doesn't matter I'm putting on the wires properly so it will be fine. Now I am getting no start and burping and farting out of the carb. Now I am confused lol. Do you think they were off on timing maybe and moved the plugs a position or 2 around? It ran very well before unless it in a vapor lock or whatever it is that I'm chasing and idled perfectly unless you gave it too much gas and it would die out

Double check the firing order. #1 should be marked on the cap, rear most pointing at the drivers seat. Counterclockwise from there. #1 plug is front passenger side, 2-4 behind it. #5 is front drivers side, 6-8 behind that.

[Djweaz]

Yep took them off 3 times to make sure I was doing it right.
Changed the cap and rotor for brand new ones and now it won't start. Noticed something strange mine has a number 1 where the 1 goes. As I started taking wires off something seems strange as they weren't lining up to the firing order
1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8
And block is set to
1-2-3-4
<---front
5-6-7-8
my 1 cap is at the rear closest to the engine and slightly to the left
Next 5 then 4,2,6,3,7,6. Going counter clockwise.
I even checked the intake for the firing order making sure it want a freak of nature. I do find it strange the way the cylinders are straight done one side and not side to side like a Chevy.

[jopizz]

I'm not sure what could be wrong. It's pretty simple.

John

[bird 60]

I could be way off here but, is the rotor button in the dizzy.

Chris.....From OZ.

[Yadkin]

Yep took them off 3 times to make sure I was doing it right.
Changed the cap and rotor for brand new ones and now it won't start. Noticed something strange mine has a number 1 where the 1 goes. As I started taking wires off something seems strange as they weren't lining up to the firing order
1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8
And block is set to
1-2-3-4
<---front
5-6-7-8
my 1 cap is at the rear closest to the engine and slightly to the left
Next 5 then 4,2,6,3,7,6. Going counter clockwise.
I even checked the intake for the firing order making sure it want a freak of nature. I do find it strange the way the cylinders are straight done one side and not side to side like a Chevy.

Yeah, GM ain't Ford, that's certain. And you have two #6 in your order.

Check your new cap and rotor. The last set I bought from O's was complete China junk! Same brand, but the rotor made contact inside the cap. I had to order from Summit Racing.

[Dakota Boy]

what distributor are you using? I have an MSD in my car, and the magnetic pickup inside the distributor just died last week for no apparent reason. I had spark at the coil wire, but no spark at the plugs. Replaced the part and the car fired right up. Apparently that magnetic pickup is also used in ford distributors (non-points)

[partsetal]

I've had problem with the harmonic balancer slipping. There is a piece of insulating rubber bonded to the crank piece and the piece with the timing mark and pulley. With age the rubber loses its bond and allows the timing mark piece/pulley to slip. I sent one away for rebuilding and it came back 80 degrees out. It was done by an individual with experience in this work. I marked it correctly, sent it back and it was then done correctly. Since I deal with a lot of 430's I always use a vacuum guage to set the timing.
Carl