Mild Overheating - 1960 Thunderbird

[JamesBorisPerez]

Mild Overheating

I'm interested to find out if the oil cooler helped the issue. I have a 1960 Thunderbird, and I installed an electric fan that really helped overheating if stop an go traffic (San Francisco), I wouldn't mind addressing the issue, slight now, even better. Thank You.

[YellowRose]

Mild Overheating - 1960 Thunderbird

I will let others address the oil cooler situation. However, I wonder if you happen to have a shroud installed on your radiator, or a 5 or 6 bladed fan? If not, you might consider putting a shroud on, and if you have a 4 bladed fan, consider upgrading it to a 5 or 6 bladed one. Doing that, and having my radiator re-cored, seems to have fixed my overheating problem. You can get an ABS shroud and fans from the various Tbird parts houses listed in the Advertisements Forum. I got mine on eBay, a metal one off a '63 Galaxie, as I recall. So this is something that you might consider if you do not have a shroud or a 5 or 6 bladed fan. That and flushing out the radiator really well.

[byersmtrco]

On mine, the shroud really helped.
I've got a 4-Row radiator. I don't know that the eng
oil gets all that hot. I'm think a trans cooler would really
help. All the newer cars come w/those. Mostly trucks &
vans come with extn'l eng oil coolers too.

I've been out on some pretty hot days. I've never seen that
gauge go past the middle. About 1/3 over is 180 deg (just in the E in TEMP. I had a rad cap with a gauge in it for awhile just so I'd know.

[Tbird1044]

Just as a side note, here is a good article on how to properly position the fan in the fan shroud for maximum cooling. It pretty well explains the benefits of doing this. I am still looking for a shorter fan spacer to do this.

https://www.flex-a-lite.com/blog/the-perfect-fan-shroud-position/

Nyles

[simplyconnected]

I read the article and I see it as helpful, mainly for this company to sell their products.

I fly radio controlled airplanes as a very casual hobby. On hot days the plane reacts much more sluggish than on cool days. Hot air is expanded and the prop has a harder time 'biting' into it. More rpm doesn't always help because hot air is lighter which causes the propeller to slip.

The article makes no mention of air temperature operation because they are constrained to a mechanical fan mounted behind the radiator where the air is hot. Many of our members increased the number of blades on their fans which helps move hot air, somewhat.

There is a better solution for your cooling system.
ELECTRIC FANS... I mounted my ELECTRIC fan in front of my radiator. Here are the advantages:

• The blades bite into cooler air far better,
• The electric motor operates in a cool environment, making it last longer,
• Multiple electric fan speeds are easy to attain,
• The fan only turns on when the RADIATOR TEMP gets hot. This is important on several levels.
  • Fuel and engine HP efficiency increases simply because the fan is never needed before your engine comes up to a normal temp. (A 'wide open throttle' switch can be installed to shut down the alternator and A/C clutch, to divert all HP to the rear wheels when you need to get off the tracks.)
• An electric fan operates well during extended idle terms, like during cruises and rush hour traffic,
• Electric fans maximize the cooling capacity of 4-row radiators by pushing more cool air through. By contrast, mechanical fans don't work as well at idle speeds because the extra rows of cores actually resists air flow, making air flow much slower,
• Electric fans ensure enough air will flow through the A/C condenser when the compressor is pumping,
• It's no secret that all car manufacturers advanced to use the advantages of electric fans. BTW, I've never seen an electric fan that didn't come with a shroud as part of the housing.

OIL COOLING...
Engine oil is always much hotter than coolant. Cylinders and heads have coolant passages around them but what about the aluminum pistons? Pistons don't melt because OIL flow from underneath carries heat to the oil pan where the temp commonly reaches 300 degrees F. (149C). Oil cooling happens when it is pumped around the cast iron and carried away by the cooing system.

Oil cooling is a great idea if your cooling system is insufficient because thermal transfer is most efficient when air temps are coolest and oil temps are at their hottest. (When oil and air temps are the same, there is no cooling.) So, even on the hottest days, oil is typically 150F hotter than ambient air while coolant temps are only ~80F hotter.

Questions?
- Dave

[Tbird1044]

Dave:]
I totally agree with you the best solution for overheating on these old Birds is an electric fan. The efficiency ratios will never be matched by a belt driven fan. However, if we go to an electric fan, you also need to convert and install a 100 amp alternator. It seems you can never just change ONE thing.
I figure these cars ran for a lot of years with the original cooling systems, so we should be able to get them to run today. I could be wrong. I did find a fan spacer and already bought the shroud, so I'm going to give it a try and see how it performs.
Nyles

[simplyconnected]

...I figure these cars ran for a lot of years with the original cooling systems, so we should be able to get them to run today...

Absolutely right Nyles, but classic cars were never designed or built for long, idle-speed periods. ALL the classic badges overheat in slow moving traffic unless they are modified.

The bottom line:
It's your car to do with what you want and according to your style. Some classic car owners demand 'pure stock' and those cars only leave the garage on a trailer. - Dave

[ekstrandt]

Hate to disagree Dave but pulling is better than pushing air through a radiator. A google search will give you many articles to argue this point. The thermal load on the motors is a interesting thought. I would think the motors are designed to handle the 200+ degrees of heat but that is only a assumption. A properly designed and fit shroud with a manual fan definitely will improve cooling. I just completed a modification to my 1960 with a 352 using the specs in the previously cited article. I ran without shroud and it overheated at idle. A shroud without covering half the blades in depth overheated. Shroud covering blades over half car does not overheat. This is real world not theory or drawing board. Electric fans definitely have advantages and are a better cooling solution as you have stated but they are expensive. I have a hard time believing that the cars were not designed to idle for extended periods New York, San Francisco, Chicago and L.A. etc have always had traffic problems. Low octane modern gas? That is a question I have no way to answer. Nyles I anticipate you will have much success with the shroud I made my own and have been happy with the results.

[scumdog]

. Electric fans definitely have advantages and are a better cooling solution as you have stated but they are expensive..

My comment is that electric fans are not THAT expensive, about NZ $120 for the big one in my '55 F100 plus maybe another twenty bucks for the relay, switch and wiring, all up around US $100.
Cheap compared to sitting stuck at the roadside gouting coolant everywhere and/or having a Chernobyl sized melt-down in your expensive-to-repair engine.

[Dakota Boy]

still available! Just wasn't enough for my rebuilt 460. Most likely would be fine with a 352 or 390.

http://squarebirds.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=19335

[pbf777]

The referenced article from Flex-A-Lite is correct and should be followed for best results (no, I won't receive a check!).

The only really poor engineering of the cooling system in these cars is the lack of concern/effort for air motion thru the radiator imparted by mechanical means. This may be attributed to the lesser traffic congestion one experienced then vs. today, also, lengthy idle durations were not commonly practiced (costly, fouled plugs, etc.), and air conditioning, still at this point in time was not present in most vehicles, and yes, the car is more refined and tolerant today than in the past (but then, that's part of the character of old cars, right?) .

The missing engineering is an engine-driven fan with more blades able to move an increased air volume over the O.E. unit, and a proper executed fan shroud. Rigid-blade fans should be accompanied with a clutch unit or a flex-blade with the appropriate spacer for positioning (my preference).

Individuals and vehicles in extreme environments (both mother nature and/or vehicle condition & use) may require additional efforts, such as a supplemental electric pusher style fan (properly installed) to increase air flow, say, thru the condenser/heat exchanger when operating the A.C..

Also, this tread discuses oil coolers as a supplemental source to control engine temps. This is viable, but understand that you are directly addressing oil temperature, attempting to influence water temperature, as indicated. If your oil is toooo hot! (established with a gauge/instrument) then a cooler is in order, if not, over cooling the oil in an attempt to reduce coolant temps is a mistake for a number of reasons. Generally, these vehicles, used sparingly (both load & frequency), don't need any supplemental oil cooling, nor is it advised.

I feel the need, in an effort to ensure the accurate dissemination of information in this forum, to comment on some of the statements concerning oil temps & cooling.

Some of the oil, within the crankcase IS exposed to temperatures of 300°, even more, under certain circumstances, but, this is not necessarily the oil temperature as referenced/understood in communication of "whats your oil temp"? (This statement is also applicable to coolant temps in the water-jacket.) And, assuming (in all instances) that oil temps both rise faster and acquire a higher value (as typically indicated) than the water/coolant is questionable.

Also, minimal, if any, oil cooling would take place in the oil galleries (FE engine), if you consider the velocity and time element as the oil is routed, and also the proximity of the water/coolant, as referenced, which is to accomplish such.

Now, before someone blows-up! I maybe wrong in how I interpreted the reading, but maybe others did to? Either one, or both topics could be discussed with participation by others, at length, maybe a dedicated thread rather than hi-jacking this one?

Remember, we're all friends here, sharing information for the benefit of all! Scott.

[scumdog]

Another tip to help to keep your motor overheating in stop-go traffic is to put your transmission into neutral as you come to a stop at stop lights etc. and leave it in neutral until it's time to move off again.
That way your engine is not loaded up against the torque converter plus in neutral the engine can rev freely at a higher speed hence your mechanical fan is spinning faster.
I may have mentioned this in the past, if so I apologise.

[simplyconnected]

Auto manufacturers would MUCH RATHER use mechanical fans because sheet metal stampings are fast and cheap to produce plus, the dies are good for many decades of different engine setups. Why did they all change to electric?

FUEL ECONOMY sells cars when energy costs are high (aren't they always). Electric fans pay for themselves many times over just in fuel economy.

BTW, electric fans speed the heating process of your engine in winter (simply because they don't turn on) and they speed the cooling process because they are never engine-speed dependent.

I read some of those online sites re:electric fans. There wasn't much in the line of scientific data (thermal dynamics, fluid power and fuel economy). One site claimed the same radiator changes resistance to flow whether the fan pushes or pulls. They had no concept that vacuum flow is much harder to achieve than pressure-flow created by compressing air in a pusher fan.

I'm having a hard time understanding ekstrandt's logic:

...I ran without shroud and it overheated at idle. A shroud without covering half the blades in depth overheated. Shroud covering blades over half car does not overheat...
...I have a hard time believing that the cars were not designed to idle for extended periods New York, San Francisco, Chicago and L.A. etc have always had traffic problems...

So, without a shroud your car overheats. But wait a minute...
Did your T-bird come with a shroud? Neither did my Galaxie or Customline. The Customline had a THREE_BLADE fan (both came with Y-Block V8s). Both cars will overheat in extended idle periods. So will my cousin's '57 Chevy, and every other car from that era. Historically, police cars and taxi cabs idled for extended periods because they must move at a moment's notice. They overheated too, more in Southern summers than Northern winters. Believe it.

Every electric motor creates heat commensurate upon the HP it produces. Without cooling the motor will cook. Electric fan motors are already in high heat PLUS their created heat. Yes they are designed to run in this environment which is why they cost so much.

The next step in cooling is the adoption of already-on-the-market 'electric water pumps' located in the radiator tank. Think of that for a minute. This is a great idea because coolant flow will not be dependent on engine speed and it will save even more fuel when the engine is cold. - Dave

[ekstrandt]

Dave maybe we have a miscommunication here.

Here are my points :
1. At no time have I tried to tell anyone that engine driven fans are better/ efficient in comparison to electric. I have planned for the possibility of needing electric fans, air conditioning is being added soon (140 amp alternator installed and ready as per advice from this site) I have narrowed my fan down to this one if needed. Feedback on this choice is welcome.

https://webstore.spalusa.com/en-us/product/0155/products/fans/high-performance/30102130/2va50-ap70-ll-ap72-ll-f-66a-12-p-12v-pksl-dual.aspx

2. You wrote "I read the article and I see it as helpful, mainly for this company to sell their products." I didn't see or feel that they were selling anything. The best part was the picture at the top of the page also the very first sentence "If you’re running a belt-driven fan, there are a few things you need to do in order to maximize the engine cooling that the fan can provide." My logic that you questioned below was simply this. If you follow the recommendation in the article you will see a improvement in the amount of air flow through the radiator. I had the time to try it three ways and see the results.

3. As for push vs pulling air I will resort to using your own logic What do modern cars do? I'm not saying there is only one way to do it as your pusher setup works fine.

4. Also I gave a reason why I believe the old cars overheat. The fuel in 1950- early 70's is different than modern fuels.

Again all I'm trying to communicate is if you are trying to improve airflow with a engine driven fan the recommendation's in the article from flex-a-lite have worked for me and match specs from modern-ish cars (1994 jeep and a 1998 sierra) I have around with engine driven fans.

[pbf777]

I believe the main reason the fan(s) (electric) is generally installed as a "draw-thru" (by the O.E.s & slowly learned after-market), with the appropriate shroud, is that it lends itself to have better air motion effect from a more even distribution across the radiator core, as compared to the typical "blow-thru" installation. In operation, the area behind the radiator, ahead of the fan, within the shroud, becomes a low pressure area, which mother nature then attempts to fill; hence air traverses thru the radiator core. This is why it is imperative to have proper fan to shroud relationship and to "fit" the shroud to cover as much of the radiators' core area, and seal against leakages about the shrouds' perimeter as much as possible; to create the maximum pressure drop possible.

To accomplish the similar effect in the blow-thru, would lead to rather complicated engineering endeavor consisting of an array of air veins & distribution ducting.

Also, remember that if the area ahead of the radiator is blocked with your complicated blow-tru engineering endeavor, you lose the "free" (o.k. it's not "free", if only due to "drag") air flow acquired when the vehicle is in motion. And this is an area where the manufactures have really increased efficiency in the newer vehicles. By designing better air flow around & thru the engine compartment, so as when the vehicle is in motion, a more efficient pressure-drop is created behind the radiator even without the fan(s) operating. Ever notice how infrequent the electric fan operates in you new car, when in motion (under normal operating conditions)?

But, relatively simple blow-tru fan installations as supplemental support and for intermittent use such as to cool the A.C. condenser when operating A.C., particularly in older vehicles, seems logical.

BTW. I don't believe modern vs. back-then fuels will have much/any effect under idling and low-speed conditions. Scott.