New member, Tommy with 59 t-bird

[YellowRose]

New member with 59 t-bird

1958 352 Valve Covers are Black. 1959 352 Valve Covers are light Ford Blue. 1960 Valve Covers are Yellow. 1959 430MEL Valve Covers are Black, as are the 1960 Valve Covers. Chrome Valve Covers are optional. All according to the OFS.

[Guest]

New member, Tommy with 59 t-bird

Hi I recently purchased a 59 t- bird. I have some questions. I thought I had a 352, but I recently found out different when trying to buy a fuel pump anyhow my engine casting #is C3SE6T3. above is #6H3 and the head #D2TE AA any help much appreciated.
PS there is also another casting #B0349ES3C

[jopizz]

The C3SE indicates a 1963 Thunderbird (390) and the D2TE heads indicate a 1972 360/390. The good news is the '72 heads have hardened valve seats.

John

[YellowRose]

casting #s

I am going to Merge this thread with Tommy's original thread so we can keep it all together... From talking with Tommy on the phone today he said this Tbird has had some modernization done to it, as indicated by what he said about engine block numbers and other things. It has an alternator, electric windshield wipers, a modernized radio and CD player, that I know of. He said he does want to do some more modernization of it, maybe disc brakes down the road. It apparently has white paint under the valve covers, and under that chrome! He can tell you more about it. Mainly, he is interested in finding out more about what the engine numbers mean and John just gave him some good information. He figured out that it does have hardened valve seats by one of those numbers. What does the B0349ES3C tell us? Does the TE in D2TE indicate a Truck Engine?

He does not have the car home yet, but will have it soon when he can get access to a flatbed hauler. I already told him to make sure they don't drag the rear end and damage it when winching it up on the flatbed.

[simplyconnected]

...the '72 heads have hardened valve seats...

Huh? John, they didn't install hardened seats until after 1980. I have a '73 390; the valves were pulled up so far, I gave the heads to one of the scrap pickers that comes around on garbage day:


In my opinion, if aluminum heads are available, it's just not worth spending good money on cast iron heads. - Dave

[jopizz]

I was just going by this chart that I found.

http://www.fordfe.info/Forum/Heads.html

John

[Guest]

Casting #'s

The C3SE indicates a 1963 Thunderbird (390) and the D2TE heads indicate a 1972 360/390. The good news is the '72 heads have hardened valve seats.

John

Thanks John, do you think the heads will change the compression? I think the TE stands for truck engine. I also checked the tranny and it is a cast bell the # on bell housing is PBB 7976B do you think that's a cruiso. I see they have a FX,MX,HX and FMX. I have no idea. Thanks for any info. Tommy"

[jopizz]

I'm not sure about the heads. Dave would probably know the answer. As far as the transmission the PBB designation is usually seen on large case cruise-o-matics used on the 430. The 352 transmissions usually have a PBL designation. Looks like you have a real menagerie of parts there.

John

[YellowRose]

New member, Tommy with 59 t-bird

Hi John,

You have that right about the menagerie! It looks like the previous owner prior to who Tommy bought this from, made quite a few changes to this car. If the TE in D2TE stands for what I think it does, that is a '72 truck engine. Tommy says that from what he read, they had hardened seats in the '72 truck engines by then, but I gather not in Ford cars til '83, I think Dave said.

Is his engine a 390 or 406, or 428? Tommy did the standard check, pulling #1 and #4 plugs. With the #1 all the way to the bottom, he measured the distance from the bottom to the lip. He was coming up with a measurement of about 4 inches! What would that tell you that engine is? I always thought a 352 would measure out at 3 1/2", and anything more than that, say to 3 3/4" or so would be a 390. What does 4" tell us?

I checked the PBB 7976B, and like you, found it listed in the Ford Parts listing as a tranny for the 430 engine. A heavier duty tranny, it appears. Is that because the engine is perhaps a 406 or 428, and needed the heavier duty tranny? Tommy does not know the answers to some of these questions because the guy he bought it from does not know the answers, I gather. I think Tommy said when the guy bought it in Georgia, he was told the wipers did not work. He drove it home to New York in the rain, somehow without wipers! When Tommy bought it, he turned on the wiper switch and found they worked! Not only did they work, they are electric wipers!

Tommy has a few questions he would like answers to, but it does look like he got a pretty good Tbird that has already been improved somewhat, with an alternator, and electric wipers. This is a car that he wants to keep for a longgg time, and continue to restore and improve it. Is that a 2Bbl carb I see on the engine? I think he said it was a Holley, but that it was working really well.

[simplyconnected]

I spoke with Tom tonight and I find him to be very pleasant and knowledgeable regarding Ford engines and transmissions. Tom is VERY happy with his engine and transmission and excited to learn more about his unique setup.

As you all suspected, Tom has a light truck 390 (TE) from the early 70's. His stroke is longer than 3.5" which makes it a 390. Remember, 390s and 427s used the same Crankshaft; the only difference is bore diameters. FE parts were designed to be interchanged with the goal of making your engine specific to your application be it for car, boat, construction equipment, etc.

Truck pulleys and T-bird pulleys are different lengths. His engine and heads were truck, and the timing cover, pulleys and final dress are T-bird or Galaxie. That would explain why his Expansion Tank looks different, with the fill neck off to the side instead of on top.

Tom is very impressed with how smooth his engine runs. To me, that indicates someone did a good rebuild and not too long ago.

Tom's Fuel Pump broke. The parts counter guys couldn't find the correct part (for a Squarebird engine). They went through the years and found it matched a '72 Fairlane. That confirms our suspicions as his Timing Cover has the Fuel Pump mounting holes in a lower place.

John, I read that about the "flame hardened" valve seats. The problem isn't just the seats. It's also with the valves. Modern cars use stainless valves which cannot weld themselves to the seat material. I showed one pic of the '73 TE head. To pass fair judgment here are the remaining nine with a pic of both heads:

http://squarebirds.org/Engine/FE-Valves/DSCN0269.jpg

http://squarebirds.org/Engine/FE-Valves/DSCN0270.jpg

http://squarebirds.org/Engine/FE-Valves/DSCN0271.jpg

http://squarebirds.org/Engine/FE-Valves/DSCN0272.jpg

http://squarebirds.org/Engine/FE-Valves/DSCN0273.jpg

http://squarebirds.org/Engine/FE-Valves/DSCN0274.jpg

http://squarebirds.org/Engine/FE-Valves/DSCN0276.jpg

http://squarebirds.org/Engine/FE-Valves/DSCN0277.jpg

http://squarebirds.org/Engine/FE-Valves/DSCN0278.jpg

http://squarebirds.org/Engine/FE-Valves/DSCN0279.jpg

I don't know how anyone can 'harden' nodular cast iron because it has over 2% carbon and no grain structure. It's already so hard it's brittle. They chipped off core 'flash' with air hammers at the Dearborn Iron Foundry. Dozens of workers worked on the Chipping Lines and pieces of iron chips went flying everywhere. Everyone gladly wore ear muffs and safety goggles. I remember one guy's job was to stick a board in a bore and flip the blocks over as they traveled to the next guy.

[jopizz]

Dave,

Thanks for clearing that up. As they say a picture is worth a thousand words.

John

[KULTULZ]

Thanks John, do you think the heads will change the compression?

You have to know the cylinder head combustion chamber CC to determine that.

I think the TE stands for truck engine.

D= 1970 (Decade)
2= 1972
T= TRUCK (Light - Medium - and possibly HEAVY*
E= Identifies part as being in the Engine Group (Engineering No)

* H was usually the Third Prefix Character regarding heavy truck.

I also checked the tranny and it is a cast bell the # on bell housing is PBB 7976B do you think that's a cruiso. I see they have a FX,MX,HX and FMX. I have no idea. Thanks for any info.

Tommy"

You need to measure main case length to determine trans type.

[Guest]

D2TE-AA heads

I spoke with Tom tonight and I find him to be very pleasant and knowledgeable regarding Ford engines and transmissions. Tom is VERY happy with his engine and transmission and excited to learn more about his unique setup.

As you all suspected, Tom has a light truck 390 (TE) from the early 70's. His stroke is longer than 3.5" which makes it a 390. Remember, 390s and 427s used the same Crankshaft; the only difference is bore diameters. FE parts were designed to be interchanged with the goal of making your engine specific to your application be it for car, boat, construction equipment, etc.

Truck pulleys and T-bird pulleys are different lengths. His engine and heads were truck, and the timing cover, pulleys and final dress are T-bird or Galaxie. That would explain why his Expansion Tank looks different, with the fill neck off to the side instead of on top.

Tom is very impressed with how smooth his engine runs. To me, that indicates someone did a good rebuild and not too long ago.

Tom's Fuel Pump broke. The parts counter guys couldn't find the correct part (for a Squarebird engine). They went through the years and found it matched a '72 Fairlane. That confirms our suspicions as his Timing Cover has the Fuel Pump mounting holes in a lower place.

John, I read that about the "flame hardened" valve seats. The problem isn't just the seats. It's also with the valves. Modern cars use stainless valves which cannot weld themselves to the seat material. I showed one pic of the '73 TE head. To pass fair judgment here are the remaining nine with a pic of both heads:

http://squarebirds.org/Engine/FE-Valves/DSCN0269.jpg

http://squarebirds.org/Engine/FE-Valves/DSCN0270.jpg

http://squarebirds.org/Engine/FE-Valves/DSCN0271.jpg

http://squarebirds.org/Engine/FE-Valves/DSCN0272.jpg

http://squarebirds.org/Engine/FE-Valves/DSCN0273.jpg

http://squarebirds.org/Engine/FE-Valves/DSCN0274.jpg

http://squarebirds.org/Engine/FE-Valves/DSCN0276.jpg

http://squarebirds.org/Engine/FE-Valves/DSCN0277.jpg

http://squarebirds.org/Engine/FE-Valves/DSCN0278.jpg

http://squarebirds.org/Engine/FE-Valves/DSCN0279.jpg

I don't know how anyone can 'harden' nodular cast iron because it has over 2% carbon and no grain structure. It's already so hard it's brittle. They chipped off core 'flash' with air hammers at the Dearborn Iron Foundry. Dozens of workers worked on the Chipping Lines and pieces of iron chips went flying everywhere. Everyone gladly wore ear muffs and safety goggles. I remember one guy's job was to stick a board in a bore and flip the blocks over as they traveled to the next guy.

Dave thanks for taking the time to help me last night, you are very knowledgeable and was a pleasure speaking with you. I just called the person I purchased from and he is going to try and find the name and # of person he purchased from. I also noticed it has a duel vacume dist which didn't come into play until 1968, as the plot thickens. I am just very curious to find out what I have. I will post as I learn more. Thanks to all for trying to help me. Tommy"

[Guest]

casting #'s

Hi, I've been thinking I might have a set of #'s backward. The
BO349ES3C reading with a mirror could be C3SE9430B I don't know if this is of any help. Thanks again Tommy"

[YellowRose]

New member, Tommy with 59 t-bird

Hi Tommy, Sorry I did not think of this sooner. The B0 number could not possibly be correct, because there was no B0 number for Tbirds. B5-B9, yes, but 0 would have been a C0 series. So yes, you had the numbers reversed. The research I just did says that the C3SE9430B is the right hand exhaust manifold for a 390 1963 Tbird, the C3S says C=1960's, the 3=1963 and the S=Thunderbird. The left hand side is the C3SE9431B, which is what you should find on it when you look. I also read and have seen these advertised as being used on the 63-64 Galaxie.

So you have a 390 1972 light to medium truck engine, with 390 1963 Tbird exhaust manifolds. From the sound of what has been said about it, you have a good engine. You probably have, as indicated by that tranny tag, a heavy duty tranny that was used with the 430MEL engine. As Gary said, you need to measure the length of it to see what you get. Or look for more casting numbers, and get ALL the information off the tranny tag, if you have not already done so. You probably have a HX type tranny.

I am going to post the pix here on where to measure your tranny to help determine what you have. The tag on the tranny should have said 430 off to the left side of the tag. The right side should say PBB, as it does, also indicating it is a tranny used with the 430MEL engine, followed by a series of numbers or letters, which it does. A PBL designator indicates it was a tranny used with the 352 engine. There are other markings or castings you should look for also, like a 3 digit casting that will tell you when it was made. So a previous owner must have decided that he wanted a heavier duty tranny with that truck engine and went the HX 430MEL route.

As you will see by the one pic that a 1958-1960 HX 3-speed will have a measurement of HX 10 7/8" between the areas marked "A". A 1961 and on HX will be 11.6" in that same area. I hope this helps.

I thought I had these two pix in the Technical Resource Library, but didn't. I do now. To zoom in on them use Ctrl + on your keyboard.