new engine on a 1959 Tbird

[57ford/60thunderbird]

karl , just from what youve posted about what this shop has told you , i think if i were you id seriously look for another shop to me he does sound on the up and up

[karambos]

Results

I just got the car back. Here's the skinny:

They replaced 2 idler arm bushings. There are about 20 on the car, he said, but they replaced the worst two and I have to say she steers much better. The reason they don't want to replace the others is because of the oil leak around the fuel pump area. He told me that if you get oil on a new bushing, it degenerates quickly.

I got one new master brake cylinder, new wheel cylinders and shoe sets. So she runs, and I'm happy.

Now, this is what he says is wrong with the engine. The motor mounts are torn out. He says they are cheap to replace but they didn't replace them if they're only going to have to take them out again when (if?) they replace the engine. This means there's nothing holding the engine in place. He told me not to suddenly hit the gas because there's the possibility that one side of the engine could lift. And if that happens, it pulls slightly on the exhaust, possibly on the radiator and possibly on the accelerator. That could be dangerous if I hit the gas and the engine adds more gas and I'm out on the street.

There are cracks in the engine block near the frost plugs that are leaking antifreeze. The antifreeze reservoir on top on the engine also leaks.

He says that if they change the engine, they can set up the ignition to run on todays fuel. Apparently, back in the day when there was lead in the gas, you could use a 10.25 to 1 compression ratio and get up hills without pinging. They'll need to advance back on the timing to get rid of the ping because of the fact that today's gas burns to badly. They want to put a new truck block in and with my camshaft specs, balance the crankshaft with the original flywheel. And they would reuse my heads, possibly rejet the carburettor. The whole thing will take 18 hours at $89 per hour (before tax) and that includes engine bay detailing. Total cost around $6000. I think I just threw up a little.

So I've been advised to check the radiator every time I fill up and to add antifreeze if necessary.

I'm grateful for any comments.

[Guest]

Here's a motor and transmission in Vancouver Washington, Maybe a 5 or 6 hours away from you. It might be worth the drive.

http://portland.craigslist.org/clk/pts/1208812935.html

edit: It says its a 352 out of a 64 tbird but I think the 64 had a 390. Same block, should bolt right in.

[57ford/60thunderbird]

there is only one idler arm with at most 4 bushings if oil get on a new bushing it may wear out qiuicker in like 35 years instead of 50 any competant radiator shop should be able to fix the coolant tank

are they going to rebuild the heads? if not it would be a wasted gester to put old worn out heads on a new block , yes yesterdays gas had lead in it the engines needs lead running an old car without lead in the gas burns up the exhaust valve seats (the lead lubricated them) that why if they dont do the heads your wasting time and money

yes in extreme high powered launches what he said about the motormounts is true will a completely stock 50 year old car be able to do the kind of damage he says in daily driving HIGHLY unlikely it is not good to drive it with the mounts that way IF they are as bad as he says

i think (maybe) with out seeing myself i cant tell obviously , but what he says is cracks around the freeze plugs is actually the freeze plugs are leaking this can happen if the cars sat for a long period of time they are called "freezeout" plugs because they pop out if the block freezes at least they are suppoed to (so the block wont crack) and about the only way a block cracks is if it freezes soooo........ the lickly hood of the block cracking around the plugs is not very allthough it can happen

in reality the freeze plugs are called core plugs they are there to fill the wholes left in the block from the casting proccess so the sand could be removed

18 hours? to remove the engine completely rebuild and balance it and reinstall it ? doubt it maybe in actuall working hours to remove and install but you'll be with out the car foe the better part of 2 weeks if not longer

again IF it was my car id find another mechanic first

[karambos]

I most definitely will get a second opinion. No doubt about that. I don't want to throw $6k at her only to find out you could have fixed it in half an hour and a $7.00 rubber ring or something.

Interesting about the bushings......and a very good point about rebuilding the heads

[GTE427]

Continue to shop around. His labor totals to $1600, the cost of the engine is $4400. Shop around for a used motor, remanufactured or crate engine. I'm not familiar with crate engines and their cost, but they are popular with the musclecar folks, surely an FE engine should be offered, check for a warrantee, thats allot of cash to lay out.

For comparison, a friend had him 428 replaced in a 66 Bird by Pat Wilson a year ago, using a remanufactured engine, $3500 out the door, with a warrantee.

Then again, by networking with car clubs, if your patient, maybe you'll find someone who does this type of work at a reasonable cost as a past-time.

Lastly, I'd want a second opinion about the block, the freeze plugs can also rust and leak, it very well may be the block, just don't rule out the plugs too quickly when this amount of cash is on the line.

[RustyNCa]

They replaced 2 idler arm bushings. There are about 20 on the car, he said, but they replaced the worst two and I have to say she steers much better. The reason they don't want to replace the others is because of the oil leak around the fuel pump area. He told me that if you get oil on a new bushing, it degenerates quickly.

Now, this is what he says is wrong with the engine. The motor mounts are torn out. He says they are cheap to replace but they didn't replace them if they're only going to have to take them out again when (if?) they replace the engine. This means there's nothing holding the engine in place. He told me not to suddenly hit the gas because there's the possibility that one side of the engine could lift. And if that happens, it pulls slightly on the exhaust, possibly on the radiator and possibly on the accelerator. That could be dangerous if I hit the gas and the engine adds more gas and I'm out on the street.[/COLOR]

There are cracks in the engine block near the frost plugs that are leaking antifreeze. The antifreeze reservoir on top on the engine also leaks.

He says that if they change the engine, they can set up the ignition to run on todays fuel. Apparently, back in the day when there was lead in the gas, you could use a 10.25 to 1 compression ratio and get up hills without pinging. They'll need to advance back on the timing to get rid of the ping because of the fact that today's gas burns to badly. They want to put a new truck block in and with my camshaft specs, balance the crankshaft with the original flywheel. And they would reuse my heads, possibly rejet the carburettor. The whole thing will take 18 hours at $89 per hour (before tax) and that includes engine bay detailing. Total cost around $6000. I think I just threw up a little.

So I've been advised to check the radiator every time I fill up and to add antifreeze if necessary.

I'm grateful for any comments.

Sorry, but his facts don't smell right to me.... I would go somewhere else personally. Sounds like he is mixing truth and fiction in what he is telling you.

[Dan Leavens]

Karl settle up with them and get the car back to your place as I agree with the others, it sounds like more fiction than truth. Either that or they want to make some quick $$ especially suggesting to put a truck block in Get a hold of one of the members of the Kelowna Thunderbird Club, join if you want as the yearly dues are not much and they will steer you straight to a couple of guys they use at a more reasonable hit $$

[bird 60]

Hi Karl,
A few things I would do first. (1) Get your engine steam cleaned so you can see where it's leaking from & to locate the so called cracks. (2) If the Bird is drivable get the engine mounts changed for peace of mind. Your'e going to change them eventually anyway. (3) Find a different mechanic, ask questions & get prices. (4) There's some good second hand 352s for sale that have been replaced by 390s. (5) Don't rush into things, be patient something good will come your way.

Chris....From the Land of OZ.

[karambos]

Just to fill you in on the results.

I still haven't gotten a second opinion but to be honest, the antifreeze hasn't needed refilling since he told me it would leak out. So I'm wondering if it's cracked at all.

I have had new motor mounts put in and had the linkage tightened on the gears.

I've also had new brake hoses, power steering hose and power steering pipes put in. I'm going back in two weeks to get them checked and he said he'd show me where the cracks are when I take it in.

[JohnG]

If you hook up with a modern garage, they can put something flourescent in the coolant, have you drive the car for awhile and then shine a special light on the motor which then reveals the presence of coolant on the block or shows nothing (we hope!). Takes alot of the guesswork out of it.

Since you are possibly looking at a $1-$3000 problem, depending on what you hypothetically put in the car for a motor, this might be time and money well spent.

John

[karambos]

Hi all,

As this thread seems to contain the most info and be the most viewed and given that I've already replied to Chris's post in the "Anything Goes" part of this forum, I though it best not to re-post everything here but instead to link to that:

http://www.squarebirds.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=6969

[mvonhobe]

352 out, 390 in.

I took my '59 to a local shop 5-1/2 years ago; the guys have "real" day jobs and come to the machine shop afterwards to do what they love. I told them I had a '59 with a 352 that needed rebuilding. He affirmed that a rebuilt 352 essentially ended up as a 390. He could do that BUT, he had dropped a brand new 390 into a truck a few months prior and the guy disappeared leaving his truck behind. He dropped the new 390 in, added a Pertronix ignition, and a Demon Jr. carb, and gave me back the tired 352. All for $2,317.58

[63-4drpost]

mechanic

Go to Jim's auto repair in Forest Grove, Oregon.
Jim Bren owns it, I used to work for him. No bull****, no lies.

[davidmij]

If I remember correctly, the thud when you put it in reverse could also be due to worn U joints. I would guess that a broke engine mount might make it thud as well.
I just bought a 67 LTD for the 390 motor. Hopefully I will be selling my 352 soon. It is in REAL bad shape and needs a rebuild though so I'm sure I'll end up selling it cheap to somebody that wants to make it a 390.