Engine not turning over. Getting some sparks.

[Techie5262]

Having an issue with one of my 1959 Tbirds (Has 352 V8). It was last driven to a car lot down in St. Louis quite some time ago where it sat until I bought it.

I went to bypass the ignition switch. I connected a wire from the battery terminal to the terminal on the coil (Correct terminals). I connected the two terminals on the solenoid and got sparks. No turn over, just some good sized sparks and slight burns on the screwdriver. Gas tank is probably empty, but I thought I would at least hear it turn over. Am I possibly forgetting something here? Any ideas on why this is happening? Any suggestions?

[Guest]

Hey Gerald,
First is the battery got a full charge? I know on Christine it takes battery fully charged to turn her over.
Has starter quit?
Has she jumped timing?
Can you turn the engine by hand?
Keep us posted!!!
Richard D. Hord

[Techie5262]

Hello Richard and thank you for your reply!

The battery does have a full charge. It is actually a new one obtained about 1-2 weeks ago for my other '59 Tbird (Red one). I just pulled it out of her and moved it to the black one.

Not sure if the starter is bad or not. Only thing I got were some sparks and burnt metal (Actually put small holes in the surface of the screwdriver, lol).

These are my first restoration projects, so I have not tried turning the engine by hand. Sorry to say and sound like a noob, but I am not completely sure how to do this. Not sure how to tell if she has jumped timing, either. If you could tell me how on both of those, I will be sure to try it later on when I head back out to them.

Off Topic:

I see that alot of you name your cars (I like that). I still need to come up with one for mine, lol. Should I create a thread somewhere for the restoration process on these and to get suggestions?? Let me know, thanks!

-Gerald

[JohnG]

You really need to decide if the engine has siezed up from sitting. The bolt on the end of the crankshaft takes a 15/16" socket or offset wrench. I believe you want to rotate clockwise as you are facing the car from the front. Take all the sparkplugs out first (good thing to do anyways).

IF you find it will not turn over, one or more set of rings may have rusted to the cylinder wall. Not the end of the world but patience is needed.

Get some Marvel Mystery Oil or Liquid Wrench (forget WD40) and put 2-3 tablespoons in each cylinder. Let it set for a day or so. Resist the urge to wail away immediately. You do not want to break any rings!!!

The substance is good anyway, as the rings may have also become stuck in the grooves and they need to be free to move laterally back and forth.

Keep us posted!!

John

[Guest]

Hey Gerald,
John answered your question for me! Thanks John!!!
If she turns we will probably have to talk to Dave (simplyconnected) about the timing issue! Keep us posted!
As far as naming your car it will come to you with time. Christine got her name from the movie (Christine). When I went to pick her up she sounded like the real Christine when she came back to the garage after being burnt. The exhaust leak sounded the same. And my Christine has a mind of her own. I can be working on her and things not going right and start cursing her and she will not start. She has done this on me more than once. If things are going good and I do not get upset with her she will start every time! Also lighting hit the house blew holes in the concrete wall on both sides of her, started a fire within three feet of her and the hood on her closed, not just the fist latch but all the way shut! Scary, now you see why I named her CHRISTINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Richard D. Hord

[Guest]

I agree that is her name. That would make me just be nice!!!!!!!!

[Techie5262]

Lol!! That is awesome, Richard!

Was just out at the cars a little bit ago. Had to rush out without checking the forum due to oversleeping and was about to miss the body shop down the road from them. Got some quotes for the body work on the red one. For all the body work (Including the trunk and everything) with priming would cost about $1500-$2000. The repainting is going to be about $2000 at the least but would include the inside of the engine area, as well (I need to remove the engine before hand). I found out that there might be a place here in town that could do the replating on the chrome for me. Just bought 2 original halo side mirrors that need to be redone as well as just about the rest of the chrome. Will need to go get a quote for that, as well.

Found the original radiator in the trunk of the red one (People before me added a new one with electric fan - supposed to be more of a racing one, but I am not wanting to turn this into a rat rod like they did) as well as some other original parts in there. Can not access the trunk of the black one atm due to having no keys for it. So it might be like finding a treasure in there when I finally find a way to open it, lol.

Going to check my tools real quick and see if I have a socket that size and then I might head back out while there is still daylight.

I want to see about having one or both of the engines rebuilt then painted. Add in all new seals and everything. I believe the engines are the original 352 V8's, but the numbers I got from the sides of the engines (Passenger side above oil pan) are giving me some trouble. I keep finding lists that repeat the numbers on several different engine types. Also, still having a bit of an issue with locating the vins on the frames to verify both my titles. Is one of the places the VIN is stamped on top of the round piece (Cross member I guess) that runs under the oil pan on the bottom of the engine?? If so it looks like the pan will need to be removed for me to see it because there is not enough space to really fit even a small mirror in there. Thought I could feel it, but that might be dirt build up, etc.

[Techie5262]

OK, just got back. Was able to turn it by hand. Thinking it might be the starter. Will need to tke it off Monday it get it tested.


Noticed a couple of differences in the engines. Appearently when they added that different radiator to the red one, and removed the fan, it looks like another device with a pulley got mounted in the engine. Also noticed the oil filter on one is at an angle facing downward while the other faces straight down. Starting to make me worry a bit about the engines seeing a couple of differences like that (Although everything else looks the same. Could use some help identifying them at this point, just to be sure.

[Rigormortor]

Did you get to see if the engine is stuck or free? Another product to use that works great is PB Blast, shoot that down the spark plug holes and the engine will get free'd up fast.

[simplyconnected]

...Got some quotes for the body work on the red one... ...would include the inside of the engine area, as well (I need to remove the engine before hand)... ...I want to see about having one or both of the engines rebuilt then painted...

Gerald, seriously, if you have the means to overhaul an engine, and bump & paint, then do it in the correct order. Otherwise, you will end up redoing your work.

I suggest you remove your engine and the transmission, first. While it is out for overhaul, do all your body and paint work (without the engine). This is how your car was built at Ford.

Whether the engine cranks or not is a moot issue if you intend on having the engine overhauled. I'm an Illionoian by birth, but I would hightail my 352 down I-74 to Indianapolis, and find a good engine machine shop, there. You get what you pay for here, but Indianapolis has LOTS of skilled engine machinists & rebuilders, and because of that, they are competitively priced.

All of our classic car engines need to be updated for today's fuel. That requires new hardened exhaust seats and stainless valves. Your heads are a major engine component, so listen to your engine rebuilder and take his advice. If you need a valve job, or a few valve guides replaced, do it.

Machine shops normally strip the block, boil (and bake) it, then magnaflux the castings to make sure there are no cracks. (If there are, there's no sense in going any further.)

Then, all mating surfaces should be machined 'true' to counter the affects of warping, water erosion divots, etc. The oil pump & distributor driveshaft, and timing chain set, pistons, rings, bearings, and possibly the lifters should be replaced. A master rebuild gasket kit will include all new seals and gaskets. You should request BRASS freeze plugs, and MOLY piston rings. Both are a little more money, but well worth the difference.

The machine shop will determine how much to bore the cylinders, THEN they will order pistons, and finally, the bores will be honed to the new piston diameters PLUS .0005" clearance. This is a very important sequence, and it takes time for all the parts to arrive.

My engine shop guarantees their engines for two years or 28,000 miles. All good rebuilders stand behind their work. If you have any questions, please ask. When your car is finished, it will be very responsive and powerful, it won't overheat, and it will look dynamite. - Dave

[Techie5262]

Thanks for the reply Dave. Some really good info there. I was planning on working on the engine (Having it out before hand) while having the body work done. I am glad I have not ordered the complete gasket set yet. I will be sure to get the types you said to request

BRASS freeze plugs, and MOLY piston rings

The red one runs and drives, sounds great, and does not smoke. It is just the black one I am having the cranking issues with. I am not sure which engine to have done first, assuming that both are in fact the "original" 352 V8. If both are, then I will get the few pieces they took off of the red one's engine when they were about to attempt turning it into a rat rod, from the black one's engine, and have the red one's engine rebuilt. Which ever engine is not being rebuilt first will be set aside and rebuilt later on. But I do plan on having the body work done while the engine is out being worked on.

By any chance can you give me a ball park estimate of the complete overhaul? Using the parts you said to. Also, I plan on most likely ordering a complete stainless steel exhaust system from the Bird House after that.

[Techie5262]

@ Rigormortor

The engine seemed free. It turned fine. Will try to get the starter tested on Monday and see if that is possibly the issue. At the same time, I might get one of those products, probably PB Blast or Liquid Wrench, and give them a try just to be safe.

[simplyconnected]

Cost? That varies widely. I would never have car work done in Chicago (or Boston). They want far too much money. But, Ohio, Indiana and Wisconsin offer great prices for the same work. The Southern States are reasonable, too.

I have seen complete 390 engines sell for $7,000. Around Detroit, you can have a shop pull your engine, rebuild it, and reassemble everything for about $5,500. Or, you can bring the components to a machine shop and have them do all the machining (and buy the parts) for under $3,000.

I prefer to build my own engine, and I shop for my own parts. My engine machine shop is great for doing just the work I ask for. The guys are quick to 'debate' issues that should be done (and the things that really NEED to be done). So, if money is tight, I look for the most bang for my buck, but I NEVER leave out any important steps.

Look for a well-established machine shop with a good staff of specialists. Some machinists do heads, while others bore or hone blocks, etc. There's always enough work (in a reputable shop) to keep everyone busy. These are the guys you want to machine your engine parts.

So, how much? I have spent $1,500 for parts and machining, but I bought top of the line parts on sale at different times and in different 'finds'.

Sometimes I trade work, like with the Painter (because I don't have a booth or spray equipment), or the Plating shop. Many of my friends are restorers, and we help each other out; I give him four hours, he gives me the same back. The more you can do, the cheaper the price tag becomes.

Pull your engine, and tear it completely down. Take 100 pictures during the process. Bring the bare block (no plugs of any kind), and bare heads to your machine shop. If you want them to degrease extra parts like rocker covers, valley pan, oil pan, timing cover, etc., they will, for a small fee.

From the cleaned and magnafluxed block, the machine shop will determine how much to bore. Then, either you or he, will buy pistons and rings. When they arrive, the machining may start. Then, you can buy the gasket set and all other components.
Here's a Y-Block I did for my Galaxie. <--click

[JohnG]

You can get parts cleaner tanks these days for cheap from places like Harbor Freight. Also environmentally friendly cleaners. Cleaning the parts is a big part of this. Make sure you get the block hot tanked and completely flushed out (I know a guy who had the motor go bad because of the hidden crap he never saw or removed).

An area to think about is how you are going to repaint the motor and refinish the exhaust manifolds. You have one shot at some of these things so you want to get it right, if possible.

Dave is right, you can save a ton of money by careful planning and getting involved.

Deciding on gaskets is another area. There are good ones and Brand X.

A common approach of machine shops when given old engines is a "30 - 10" kit. This means they take .030" off the cylinders with appropriate new pistons, and .010" off the crank journals.

A major area is the cylinder head(s). You may well be making the conversion from a 1950s head to a modern head so some decisions are in order. The original head had no valve seats nor valve guides, as I recall (the basic head simply machined for the job). A modern conversion might involve valve guides, hardened seats and perhaps stainless valves. Thereafter, unleaded gas is no problem (several schools of thought on this issue). The shops I visited took this as standard operating procedure.

Just planning out the moving around of the engine can be an adventure if you lack either a hoist, engine stand or pickup truck. That sucker is heavy!

I logged alot of the steps in my engine rebuild - feel free to read it; the url is at the bottom. Merely getting a fresh flywheel was a comedy of errors.

Rebuilding an engine is a project with many small projects within it. Each one has decisions, details and surprises, but all part of the fun!

John

[Techie5262]

Thank you SimplyConnected and John for your posts. Both of you had alot of good points and alot of things that I will need to think about.