Efi

[jopizz]

It must be nice to be able to sell a product without testing it to see if it works. Does FAST have any documentation at all that shows it working on a 390 with the stock manifold. If not then it's false advertising.

John

[Yadkin]

Obviously they don't. Apparently I am their unpaid test engineer who has to pay them for parts.

[pbf777]

What manifold are you currently using? Scott.

[simplyconnected]

I took the past two days off to complete the job. On Tuesday I completed the installation of the new tank and plumbing, mounted the throttle body and plugged it all in. I turned the fuel pump on, checked everywhere for leaks, the adjusted the regulator for 43psi. I attempted to start the engine, but the engine speed was very high, it was late so I cleaned up and went home.

On Wednesday morning I called tech support and the told me I must have a vacuum leak. So I removed the body, removed the carb spacer, cleaned and re-plumbed the PCV system, found a leaking hose and replaced it, used two new gaskets, tightened it all down, plugged it in, went through the set-up again and turned the key. It started right up.

So I took a 45 minute drive so the unit could learn, then adjusted the throttle plates at idle, then drove it home, engine purring. No gas fumes, no stinky exhaust, no hard staring and long warm-ups. If it dries up today I'll take it out and get the tires balanced, and maybe the wife will ride with me again.

On the down side, my fuel level sender is hung-up on the pump bracket, so my nearly full tank reads at 1/4. One more thing to modify...

This report is very positive, which tells me that your old intake manifold worked just fine. Intake manifolds don't change. BTW, FAST (Fuel Air Spark Technology) has rave reviews from the people at Summit Racing. They are tried, proven and Summit stakes their reputation on them even more than the Edelbrock systems. Summit sells both.
Something may have reverted back to your former problem but I don't know what because we still don't know the root cause of your lifter problems. All the symptoms you mentioned could be due to poor valve performance.

Time to do a vacuum and maybe a compression check. - Dave

[pbf777]

[QUOTE=simplyconnected;BTW, FAST (Fuel Air Spark Technology) has rave reviews from the people at Summit Racing. They are tried, proven and Summit stakes their reputation on them even more than the Edelbrock systems. Summit sells both. - Dave[/QUOTE]

Dave, as you have "pushed" this vendor previously, you apparently feel your experiences with this vendor have been positive (tech support wise), and I'm happy that they have been. But rest assured, the overall opinion by many, knowledgeable in the subject matter, would indicate differently.

They are a mail-order dumping ground for product, and reasons for pushing certain product over others may have nothing to do with the product itself. Profit, is important to a successful business; but, integrity that may be found in an honest "brick-and-mortar" business who looks the customer in the eye might be better, even if it costs more (reasonable of course); especially with technical materials which often require follow-up assistance to the customer after the sale is involved. If one seeks out the cheapest place to do business, obviously one can't complain about the lack of service or knowledgeable assistance after the sale, and this is what you will get in this mail-order/internet industry.

I realize the each individual will have their own unique experiences; but, in my opinion (& experience), and, as already indicated previously by another who has already reached the limit of their knowledgeable assistance, "this-ain't-the-place" (Summit). Scott.

[simplyconnected]

Squarebirds.org is a world wide open forum and a gathering place for our members to discuss specific problems and complaints. Our members are free to discuss any specific complaint about a vendor or a purchase. A word of caution though, generalizations and innuendo will only get you in trouble if your reality is not the truth. We have many excellent vendors that our restorers continuously depend on. If you cannot cite specifics, do not disrespect the good names of our suppliers and vendors.

I'm not obligated to defend any vendor nor do I feel compelled since I have no affiliation with any of them. However, there are certain 'parts houses' that rise far above the rest. "Summit Racing Equipment is the world’s largest mail order automotive performance equipment company..." Summit sponsors major car shows around the USA as well as NHRA, ANDRA and NASCAR teams. Their customer service AND technical support is second to none. Their new retail superstore opening in Dallas brings the number of RETAIL stores to four.

Yes, they're that good. If they weren't, Ford Racing and other major brands would not sell parts through Summit.

I googled 'FAST problems' and found something very interesting. Since this is an aftermarket EFI, most installers don't know what they're doing.

One complaint ended with an MSD distributor change because of a spark problem. Another complaint ended when the customer had an alarm installed, grabbing power from the fuel pump relay. Yet another ran his EFI harness too close to the distributor causing electrical noise to jumble the computer. In that instance the FAST was returned to the manufacturer but it was proved to be good. I also found, some problems magically 'fixed themselves' which tells me the installer was too embarrassed to admit his mistakes.

In fairness, how on God's Earth would a tech support guy have answers to these problems? They wouldn't. Bottom line is, if your EFI problems are beyond your capability hire a professional. Sometimes mistakes made are silly-stupid but not to a novice.

If you have a specific problem with a vendor, by all means, post it. So far, Summit Racing AND FAST are reported on our forum to answer ALL tech support calls.

It is up to the owner to make sure other engine components are not causing problems. One way to prove this product is to bolt your carburetor back on since the original intake manifold is used. For testing purposes, gasoline can be dispensed from a bottle hanging from the open hood. - Dave

[Yadkin]

What manifold are you currently using? Scott.

The original.

[Yadkin]

This report is very positive...

Relative to how it ran before. I'm fine tuning now.

[pbf777]

I really wish that we could keep with topic (EFI in this case) but, I am forced off-track:

[QUOTE=simplyconnected;103372] A word of caution though, generalizations and innuendo will only get you in trouble if your reality is not the truth. QUOTE.

Do you feel that you are in a position of such authority as to judge or forward "caution" to others, or should one deam this as some sort of threat?

QUOTE: If you cannot cite specifics, do not disrespect the good names of our suppliers and vendors. QUOTE.

First, that was not, nor is, the topic or purpose of this thread; and I can cite specifics all day long & bore the h#ll out of everyone.

Secondly, I do not believe, nor intended, to disrespect anyone. Rather, my intent was to point out that the "mail-order" business model, due to its' pricing strategies, often fails the customer in the after-the-sale support. And, I think the consumer has the responsibility to understand such, and as such, "mail-order" companies feel no guilt, nor should they, as their primary goal and the primary reason for their success is "price-to-your-door"---"free-freight".

QUOTE: I'm not obligated to defend any vendor nor do I feel compelled since I have no affiliation with any of them. However, there are certain 'parts houses' that rise far above the rest. "Summit Racing Equipment is the world’s largest mail order automotive performance equipment company..." Summit sponsors major car shows around the USA as well as NHRA, ANDRA and NASCAR teams. Their customer service AND technical support is second to none. Their new retail superstore opening in Dallas brings the number of RETAIL stores to four. Yes, they're that good. If they weren't, Ford Racing and other major brands would not sell parts through Summit. QUOTE.

All I can say is: Summit should send you a check! And, keep in mind there are many reasons why companies do business amongst one another, not always to the satisfaction of either party.

QUOTE: Since this is an aftermarket EFI, most installers don't know what they're doing.
In fairness, how on God's Earth would a tech support guy have answers to these problems? They wouldn't. Bottom line is, if your EFI problems are beyond your capability hire a professional. QUOTE.

No arguments here! This is why one should consider whether buying from the mail-order sources for a few dollars less (sometimes only as perceived) or from as I described, a so-called "brick-and-mortar" source with (hopefully) one-on-one assistance during and after the sale. And even if one surrenders and chooses to out-source the installation; do you think you'll be better received if you walk in to ones' establishment saying: "I bought all may parts somewhere else (because their cheaper), I only need you to "throw" them on for me", can you help me?, how much?

Also, most communication consists of one or more individuals impressions & opinions (example: please read your statements), the more accurate, generally the more appreciated.

Remember,,,,, we're all friends here! Scott.

P.S. let's discuss T-BIRDS!

[Yadkin]

I've checked and double-checked wiring and made sure that both the FAST EFI unit and the CDI ignition are wired exactly per their install manuals. Not sure if I mentioned, but I also changed plugs and high tension wires twice- Taylors to replace an elderly set followed by an MSD set because the Taylors didn't fit the plugs well and the terminals kept pulling off. I broke two autolite plugs during this process- the first time in my life that I had ever cracked plugs- so switched to Autocraft, finding them to fit the MSD connectors better than the Autolites.

I'm sure FAST has it in their fine print somewhere that some set-ups can cause problems. It's rather obvious looking at pictures of the intake under open spacers that the flow path is an ugly one. I studied fluid dynamics quite extensively in college so it's obvious to me anyway.

[Yadkin]

One other thing that points to the manifold as the problem is that I've been getting liquid gas collecting on the base of the air filter. Apparently the flow is so turbulent that a votex is created and droplets are getting back up above the throttle body.

[Yadkin]

Scott and Dave, let's not go any further discussing a vendor who has nothing to do with this thread. I'm dealing with FAST on this, not Summit. In fact I didn't buy the system from Summit. Thanks!

[stubbie]

All the forums that I have read about FAST EFI they seem to be using the single plane manifold. Have you tried contacting someone else who sells and installs Fast Efi systems? You could try these people and see what they say. http://www.murillomotorsports.com

[Dan Leavens]

Steve agreed. Let's all stay on topic on this thread

[pbf777]

Concerning your intake manifold: the 180° dual-plane design should prove acceptable, even though it generally demonstrates a greater inherent imbalance of atmosphere delivery cylinder-to-cylinder as compared to that of the typical after-market performance oriented, single-plane design; as your E.F.I. system is of a throttle body type vs. individual runner injection (sequential) w/ eight injectors, one mounted over each inlet port. One can still use the dual-plane style intake with individual runner injection, but, with additional attendance to fuel correction values to correlate with the different air quantities delivered cylinder-to-cylinder. Note that the greater variance in deliver rates as mentioned are not necessarily unintended, the 180° feature is to isolate, based on firing order sequential cylinders drawing from the plenum, coupled with the longer and more isolated, individual runners, many times of different lengths, and for a number of other reasons, this tends to provide a broader torque curve at lower to medium engine revolutions, although may suffer somewhat at higher revolutions.

Acceptable balance (for the time period) is acquired as the fuel is being "mixed" (vaporized to some degree, but not atomized) into the air stream within the plenum area of the intake, and each cylinder draws its' charge from this reservoir. Ideally (though not general achieved), the air-fuel ratio remains constant, but the density will vary cylinder-to-cylinder.

Your concern for reasonable transition from the throttle body to the intake is valid, but a "torturous" path should not create the difficulties as you describe at low speed and idle; but could create horrendous air and fuel distribution at higher velocities. Yes, smoother transitions are generally preferred, if only the rule-out the unknown effects of not.

The fuel accumulation within the air cleaner/filter is generally a byproduct of reversionary forces within the air stream inherent in the poppet-valve, reciprocating engine, carrying fuel out and into the atmosphere above the throttle/venturi, and falling-out/condensing on the available surfaces. This is one (not only) reason many O.E.M. air cleaner enclosures/housings are of a closed design w/ only a "snorkel", often with a sort-of venturi to access the atmosphere. The real question is, is the some you are witnessing excessive? "Can't-tell-a-standing-here"! Many variables at work to create the effect; but, one thought though (maybe useless), what camshaft (specs.) are you using, and was it "dialed-in" at installation? Remember, your "self-learning" E.F.I. is of a "speed-density" sensing unit, and although capable, the greater the reversionary values (pressure change) present within the induction, the greater will be the tuning challenges, as for one, this has a, lets say, deafening effect at minimum, to invalid inputs at worst to the E.C.M.. Also, the other invaluable input is that received from the O2 sensors (Lambda) and this is how the E.C.M. determines the air-fuel ratio, post process. And, reversion present within the induction leads one to be suspect of such within the exhaust, which may also, to some degree corrupt the values perceived.

None of this may mean the E.F.I. unit is not acceptable, but it may not be as self learning as one hoped.

Miscellaneous ramblings that may or may not be useful. Scott.