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electric fan that fits these cars' radiators:

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  • simplyconnected
    Administrator
    • May 26 2009
    • 8779

    #16
    Sounds to me like your thermostat isn't sensing because the cores you have it next to are cooling down when you get wind. Or, the thermostat isn't tight against a core.

    Some cores are plugged or half-plugged on the inside. They cool down quickly. Usually it's the ones used the most (right next to your inlet pipe). Since water takes the path of least resistance, flow goes to another core farther away. You can prove this with one of those infrared guns but you have to run real fast in front of the car while it's going down the road. Just sitting there, all the cores conduct heat because the hot air is stagnant. I suppose you could blow a hefty fan in front to simulate 35-mph air flow while using the gun in the driveway.

    I'm surprised factory boy didn't recognize this right away especially with a classic car. I had my rad out and filled it with phosphoric acid to break down the lime deposits. I had the rad flat with liquid covering the cores. Then I ran my propane torch over each rib quickly at first. The cores that are free will boil the liquid inside and you can hear bubbles through the cap and hose openings. The ones that are plugged don't boil. It's tricky. At the ends, the cores are normally somewhat open. Running heat along the core, it will boil until the obstruction, then it will stop. Because acid works much better with heat, I went back and forth dozens of times until the dang thing cleared itself, right and proper-like.

    Nothing beats a recored copper radiator, but this helped quite a bit. BTW, Prestone has a anti-rust chemical. Yep! Phosphoric acid in a mild form. Once it gets used up, no more anti-corrosion/anti rust properties.

    Many of the solid state controllers are current direction sensitive. They will destroy if current is reversed. That's why I like using bullet proof relay contacts. Let the solid state take care of small signal currents so relays can do the real work.

    The correct placement for the thermostat is at the radiator. At the engine's thermostat, it's always hot by design.

    There's another problem if the radiator isn't full of coolant. Water pumps pull from the bottom of the radiator. Even if the coolant level is half way down, it still pumps. I see nothing wrong with putting the thermostat closer to the bottom of the radiator where you KNOW the coolant is. If airflow works, the coolant will stay cool (and not call for the fan). If not, it's putting hot water back in your engine and the stick should sense that. - Dave
    Member, Sons of the American Revolution

    CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

    "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
    --Lee Iacocca

    From: Royal Oak, Michigan

    Comment

    • RustyNCa
      Super-Experienced
      • May 31 2007
      • 1370

      #17
      Originally posted by simplyconnected
      Sounds to me like your thermostat isn't sensing because the cores you have it next to are cooling down when you get wind. Or, the thermostat isn't tight against a core.

      Some cores are plugged or half-plugged on the inside. They cool down quickly. Usually it's the ones used the most (right next to your inlet pipe). Since water takes the path of least resistance, flow goes to another core farther away. You can prove this with one of those infrared guns but you have to run real fast in front of the car while it's going down the road. Just sitting there, all the cores conduct heat because the hot air is stagnant. I suppose you could blow a hefty fan in front to simulate 35-mph air flow while using the gun in the driveway.

      I'm surprised factory boy didn't recognize this right away especially with a classic car. I had my rad out and filled it with phosphoric acid to break down the lime deposits. I had the rad flat with liquid covering the cores. Then I ran my propane torch over each rib quickly at first. The cores that are free will boil the liquid inside and you can hear bubbles through the cap and hose openings. The ones that are plugged don't boil. It's tricky. At the ends, the cores are normally somewhat open. Running heat along the core, it will boil until the obstruction, then it will stop. Because acid works much better with heat, I went back and forth dozens of times until the dang thing cleared itself, right and proper-like.

      Nothing beats a recored copper radiator, but this helped quite a bit. BTW, Prestone has a anti-rust chemical. Yep! Phosphoric acid in a mild form. Once it gets used up, no more anti-corrosion/anti rust properties.

      Many of the solid state controllers are current direction sensitive. They will destroy if current is reversed. That's why I like using bullet proof relay contacts. Let the solid state take care of small signal currents so relays can do the real work.

      The correct placement for the thermostat is at the radiator. At the engine's thermostat, it's always hot by design.

      There's another problem if the radiator isn't full of coolant. Water pumps pull from the bottom of the radiator. Even if the coolant level is half way down, it still pumps. I see nothing wrong with putting the thermostat closer to the bottom of the radiator where you KNOW the coolant is. If airflow works, the coolant will stay cool (and not call for the fan). If not, it's putting hot water back in your engine and the stick should sense that. - Dave
      Well, I never thought to move the stat around in the core. Maybe I will have to give that a shot this summer.

      The rad is pretty new, well, I put in the 4 core brass radiator that is there, I would think pretty soon after I bought the car, so now that I think about it, that is 10 to 12 years ago. Not much use on her during that time span.

      Thanks for the idea.

      RustyNCA

      Comment

      • simplyconnected
        Administrator
        • May 26 2009
        • 8779

        #18
        Originally posted by RustyNCa
        ...Not much use on her during that time span...
        Which begs the real question: What causes corrosion and rust inside your cooling system? Is it heat? Flow? Galvanic reaction? I don't know, either.

        I do know that the phosphoric acid inside fresh antifreeze is a mild concentration that gets 'used up'. I think the green stuff (ethylene glycol) is supposed to last at least a couple years.

        They designed the orange stuff to last much longer. NEVER mix the two in your system. It turns to mud and your engine WILL overheat because the pump can't move thick viscosity.

        In the North, we depend on antifreeze but we're also guilty of making it last 'just another year' (which then turns into many years too long). Write the date on a sticker (like all garages did back in the day) to display the unbiased truth. We can't go by color because there is also a water pump lubricant in there. When buying antifreeze, you get the protection you pay for.

        (I never buy 50/50 because I buy water much cheaper, and I know it's soft.) - Dave
        Member, Sons of the American Revolution

        CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

        "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
        --Lee Iacocca

        From: Royal Oak, Michigan

        Comment

        • RustyNCa
          Super-Experienced
          • May 31 2007
          • 1370

          #19
          Originally posted by simplyconnected
          Which begs the real question: What causes corrosion and rust inside your cooling system? Is it heat? Flow? Galvanic reaction? I don't know, either.

          I do know that the phosphoric acid inside fresh antifreeze is a mild concentration that gets 'used up'. I think the green stuff (ethylene glycol) is supposed to last at least a couple years.

          They designed the orange stuff to last much longer. NEVER mix the two in your system. It turns to mud and your engine WILL overheat because the pump can't move thick viscosity.

          In the North, we depend on antifreeze but we're also guilty of making it last 'just another year' (which then turns into many years too long). Write the date on a sticker (like all garages did back in the day) to display the unbiased truth. We can't go by color because there is also a water pump lubricant in there. When buying antifreeze, you get the protection you pay for.

          (I never buy 50/50 because I buy water much cheaper, and I know it's soft.) - Dave
          I actually change it out every year in this car. I don't run any coolant in the car during the summer, I run distilled water mixed with water wetter only during the summer. Then put in the antifreeze for the winter. Drain it all out again in the spring, start the process over.

          The water wetter with distilled water seems to run about 15- 20 degrees cooler than when there is antifreeze in there, at least with this motor.

          Comment

          • Dakota Boy
            Super-Experienced
            • Jun 30 2009
            • 1561

            #20
            X2 on the Water Wetter.

            Good stuff.
            http://www.tbirdregistry.com/viewdat...ryNumber=33517

            Comment

            • Dakota Boy
              Super-Experienced
              • Jun 30 2009
              • 1561

              #21
              Fired up the car today to test the electric fan

              Amazing. that's all I can say.

              This car of mine that used to get REALLY HOT in traffic will now sit and idle all day long and never overheat.
              http://www.tbirdregistry.com/viewdat...ryNumber=33517

              Comment

              • Rock&Roll Firebird
                Experienced
                • Jun 20 2012
                • 327

                #22
                As I decided to go with electrical fan(s) on my '59 and invest the $ info the el. fan & alternator (like your solutiuon Greg) instead of 6-blade & shroud, here are few simple questions:

                a) do you think I can find an electrical fans that would fit the '59 on older European cars (Fords, etc.), cause local solution would be much cheaper for me

                b) if not, can you advise where to order in US (ideally similar twin fan as on Greg's installation)

                c) same as a) & b) but for the alternator (will be using lot of electricity (radio, el. windows, atc.) so I will need a 100+ amp (I guess)

                d) what additional hardware is needed to mount the new alt instead of the gen and how difficult is the installation (wiring/setup)

                Comment

                • Rock&Roll Firebird
                  Experienced
                  • Jun 20 2012
                  • 327

                  #23
                  So, I did some research and found, that Ford Contour is actually an European Ford Mondeo. So I searched for second generation Ford Mondeo spare parts in Czech and voila! Found the exact fan. I was so lucky, that when I called my friend who works in automotive spare parts depot, he offered me this dual fan, brand new and presently in a sale-out for $60! Wish all spares for the Bird would come that easy! Good to know that some of those doesn't need to be brought for the heavy $$$ (shipping, customs, etc.) from the US .

                  Now the alternator, fan controller and we are done!

                  Still need a help with c) and d) points from below...
                  Last edited by Rock&Roll Firebird; May 13, 2013, 01:17 PM.

                  Comment

                  • simplyconnected
                    Administrator
                    • May 26 2009
                    • 8779

                    #24
                    Can you fabricate steel? Can you weld? If so, you can make a bracket for just about any alternator and bolt it to your FE engine. The pulleys are interchangeable but you should go to a place over there that rebuilds starters and generators.

                    Alternators are about the same size as generators so there is room. If you find a good used alternator in a junk yard, it will also come with all the plugs and connectors. All new alternators have an internal regulator. That means you won't need your old voltage regulator.

                    The fan controller should be a simple thermostat that 'feels' the middle of your radiator. When the thermostat gets hot, it turns on a relay coil. In turn, the relay closes contacts which makes your fan spin. None of this wiring needs to go inside your dashboard. If your new fan draws 25 amps, use #10AWG copper stranded wire for the power side. The thermostat side can be #18AWG copper stranded wire. Don't forget to protect this wire with a fuse or circuit breaker.

                    Wiring a Ford alternator is very simple. - Dave
                    Member, Sons of the American Revolution

                    CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

                    "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
                    --Lee Iacocca

                    From: Royal Oak, Michigan

                    Comment

                    • Rock&Roll Firebird
                      Experienced
                      • Jun 20 2012
                      • 327

                      #25
                      Originally posted by simplyconnected
                      Can you fabricate steel? Can you weld? If so, you can make a bracket for just about any alternator and bolt it to your FE engine. The pulleys are interchangeable but you should go to a place over there that rebuilds starters and generators.

                      Alternators are about the same size as generators so there is room. If you find a good used alternator in a junk yard, it will also come with all the plugs and connectors. All new alternators have an internal regulator. That means you won't need your old voltage regulator.

                      The fan controller should be a simple thermostat that 'feels' the middle of your radiator. When the thermostat gets hot, it turns on a relay coil. In turn, the relay closes contacts which makes your fan spin. None of this wiring needs to go inside your dashboard. If your new fan draws 25 amps, use #10AWG copper stranded wire for the power side. The thermostat side can be #18AWG copper stranded wire. Don't forget to protect this wire with a fuse or circuit breaker.

                      Wiring a Ford alternator is very simple. - Dave
                      Thank you Dave. Do I get it right that I can be looking for an alt from the very same car type that the dual fan came from? I have never welded and do not have the tools for it (maybe it's time to start).

                      And as for the regulator, I tought I would use the Flex-a-Lite 31163 electronic fan controller (as Greg did). Although I would like to know what are the benefits of this controller (that costs $160) and what is the difference between this and other/cheaper controllers. I'd like to put only quality stuff on the car but on the other hand don't want to spend money for functionality that I may never use. Also think that fan regulators might be found locally as well...

                      Comment

                      • Dakota Boy
                        Super-Experienced
                        • Jun 30 2009
                        • 1561

                        #26
                        The controller I used has a sensor that senses coolant temperature vs. just sticking a probe in between the fins of your radiator. It also "soft-starts" the fan motors, and runs them at 60% speed at first; then speeds them up as needed based on coolant temp. It needs no extra relays, etc etc, (I am "electrically-challenged" enough already) and comes with a nice 30amp fuse assembly. There are a few other nice features that are listed on the manufacturer's website.

                        I figured since I found the dual fan for such a low price, I could spend a bit extra for a nice fan controller.

                        Keep an extra 30 amp fuse in your glove box. Just in case. I havent needed my spare yet. Maybe I never will.


                        When you get your fan, you will also need to go to a junkyard and get the wiring harness (with the nice factory plugs) to feed power to the fan motors.
                        Last edited by Dakota Boy; May 14, 2013, 07:13 AM.
                        http://www.tbirdregistry.com/viewdat...ryNumber=33517

                        Comment

                        • KULTULZ

                          #27
                          ...hmmpf.... What Do You Know?

                          Originally posted by Dakota Boy

                          The controller I used has a sensor that senses coolant temperature vs. just sticking a probe in between the fins of your radiator. It also "soft-starts" the fan motors, and runs them at 60% speed at first; then speeds them up as needed based on coolant temp. It needs no extra relays, etc etc, (I am "electrically-challenged" enough already) and comes with a nice 30amp fuse assembly. There are a few other nice features that are listed on the manufacturer's website.

                          I figured since I found the dual fan for such a low price, I could spend a bit extra for a nice fan controller.

                          Keep an extra 30 amp fuse in your glove box. Just in case. I havent needed my spare yet. Maybe I never will.

                          When you get your fan, you will also need to go to a junkyard and get the wiring harness (with the nice factory plugs) to feed power to the fan motors.
                          -#31163 VARIABLE SPEED FAN CONTROL-


                          What degree thermostat are you using? Does it seem to over-cool with both fans running (I presume)?

                          Comment

                          • simplyconnected
                            Administrator
                            • May 26 2009
                            • 8779

                            #28
                            I have a problem with mounting a sensor on the output end of the thermostat. As long as the engine is running, the thermostat won't let coolant out unless it IS hot, so it will ALWAYS be hot.

                            The thermostat is supposed to sense high RADIATOR temps. If the radiator gets hot, the fan(s) turn on. Just that easy. In winter, the fans may never turn on.

                            Cars with air conditioning conveniently turn on one fan whenever the compressor clutch is energized, whether the radiator is hot or not because condensers build pressure with heat.

                            I like Dakota Boy's setup. The only thing I would change is... I would put the sensing thermostat about six inches lower in the radiator because if the coolant level becomes a bit low, air will cool the top of the radiator much faster, giving a false reading to a high sensor. We ran into this before. The guy wanted to know why his system worked fine in the driveway but not on the road. The answer is, coolant draws from the bottom of the radiator, allowing the coolant level (at the top) to fluctuate with RPMs. - Dave
                            Member, Sons of the American Revolution

                            CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

                            "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
                            --Lee Iacocca

                            From: Royal Oak, Michigan

                            Comment

                            • Dakota Boy
                              Super-Experienced
                              • Jun 30 2009
                              • 1561

                              #29
                              I have a 180 F thermostat.

                              The temp. sensor is mounted in a port on the water neck, just above the thermostat. (my engine is a 460, not a 352; and so the thermostat sits right on top of the intake manifold.

                              On/off setting on the controller is adjustable. My fan cycles on and off as needed. Works perfectly.
                              http://www.tbirdregistry.com/viewdat...ryNumber=33517

                              Comment

                              • KULTULZ

                                #30
                                Originally posted by simplyconnected

                                I have a problem with mounting a sensor on the output end of the thermostat. As long as the engine is running, the thermostat won't let coolant out unless it IS hot, so it will ALWAYS be hot.

                                - Dave
                                Agreed. The sensor should be measuring coolant temp behind the thermostat (direction of flow). This temp reading will tell when the fans are initiated to help cool the coolant.

                                But he says his system is working. Maybe he has a coolant recovery system that bleeds air out of the system. If not, I would be concerned with air bubbles in the coolant flow and their not tripping the sensor at times.

                                Comment

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