Best location to tap power for electric fuel pump on '59?

[deany41]

Fuzzy black plugs

If I doo'd it I will get a spankin'... I DOO'D IT!

Are they fuzzy black on the outside or on the tip?

Appreciate the response...was not expecting any. Will give you particulars below.

The entire inside of the spark plug is covered. Insulator, electrodes, etc. The very tip of the central electrode shows where the spark has burned off the carbon.

Plugs are .035 gapped. Plug is fired by a Crane Cam points conversion ignition system (XR700) in a rebuilt distributer. New Coil, Rotor, Cap, Wires, gears, etc. Carburetor rebuilt. Have rechecked float adjustment a couple times. Timing 6 degrees BTDC. Vacuum advance seems to be working after slipping on hose and watching damper. Newly rebuilt engine by a notable engine rebuild shop here in Montana. Has 390 heads and has a mild performance cam.

Removed wiper hose at manifold to check vacuum. 15 inches. Seems low but have not had chance to trace. Engine starts without a problem. If it has been setting for a while it blows black smoke out the rear initially. Runs OK initially but then starts to rough idle. Have set and reset idle mixture screws. Tried to stick with the 1 1/2 turns that the manual suggests. Must be a lack of oxygen or too much fuel but can't seem to get to the bottom of what to change or try on the carburetor side of this.

Have checked voltages to coil, ballast resister is reading 2 ohms but seeing a drop to 8 volts when grounding negative on coil. (Trying to see if problem is in misfiring). The Crane Cam Fireball kit says to check for phasing (rotor and cap electrode alignment) Requires drilling a hole in the cap to view alignment with a timing light. Have not done this yet. Don't have an exta cap at the moment.

I am getting more than a little befuttled and frustrated. Just retired so I can spend a little more time on it until the snow flies. I am a little challenged until I get grounded with some knowhow on this type of thing once again. Been a while.

Ready to listen to the obvious wisdom that I respectfully have read in many of the posts.

[Guest]

Timing ...

I have found that all of my FE's like more initial timing 14-16deg., but you will need to re-curve your dist. for around 38deg. total and all in by 3000 rpm.. I think you will find this will give you a major gain in performance. Mike

[jopizz]

When you turn the mixture screws all the way in does the engine start to die. Even on a rebuilt carb it's possible that some dirt got in the air passages. Is your tank and fuel lines new. If not the carb will clog in a minute. I assume you have the original 4100 carburetor. I would set the mixture screws using the vacuum gauge rather than the 1 1/2 turns. You should be getting closer to 20 for a vacuum reading.

John

[simplyconnected]

I second what Mike posted. Put your damper pulley on about 10 degrees BTDC by hand. Pull the distributor cap off and look at where the rotor is pointed. It should be directly in front of either #1 or #6 tower (because while #1 is on its power stroke, #6 is on its exhaust stroke). If your rotor is off by a distributor tooth, timing will be pointed between towers, and must be corrected.

Usually, black spark plugs and smoke is as you said; too rich of mixture. I know it's very hard to get enough air up in the mountains, and HP suffers greatly. - Dave

[KULTULZ]

If the plugs have a dry soot, the mixture is too rich. If it shoots carbon out of the pipes @ start-up, she is too rich. The fact that the tips are clean verifies the ignition upgrade is working.

Also consider a mal-adjusted choke, its' needing service (sticking/binding) or it is not fully opening (possible weak choke thermostat). It may need to be jetted down. Is the heat riser working or possibly frozen shut? How high is it where you live and do you think it is the original carburetor?

Having your distributor re-curved as suggested will also make it run much better.

[KULTULZ]

Did the ignition upgrade vendor recommend increasing the spark plug gap?

[deany41]

ReCurve Distributer

I have found that all of my FE's like more initial timing 14-16deg., but you will need to re-curve your dist. for around 38deg. total and all in by 3000 rpm.. I think you will find this will give you a major gain in performance. Mike

Thanks for this insight which I will jump on. I am totally new to the idea of recurving a distributer so I will have to figure that out. Likely there are kits for that purpose which I will have to find a supplier for. I am not sure how much a part that it is playing on my fuel air problem, but it definitely is a contributing factor. Nice to hear the voice of experience.

[deany41]

Setting idle mixture screws

When you turn the mixture screws all the way in does the engine start to die. Even on a rebuilt carb it's possible that some dirt got in the air passages. Is your tank and fuel lines new. If not the carb will clog in a minute. I assume you have the original 4100 carburetor. I would set the mixture screws using the vacuum gauge rather than the 1 1/2 turns. You should be getting closer to 20 for a vacuum reading.

John

I was very concerned on my rebuild to spend a lot of time cleaning my tank. It is not new and the fuel line has not been replaced. However I have two inline fuel filters plus the screen in the carb. I have removed the carb (a 4100) since I have been having this issue to make careful inspection. However I will chase this lower vacuum problem and I like the idea of making the settings via the reading. Should of thought of that. Thanks for the tip.

[deany41]

I second what Mike posted. Put your damper pulley on about 10 degrees BTDC by hand. Pull the distributor cap off and look at where the rotor is pointed. It should be directly in front of either #1 or #6 tower (because while #1 is on its power stroke, #6 is on its exhaust stroke). If your rotor is off by a distributor tooth, timing will be pointed between towers, and must be corrected.

Usually, black spark plugs and smoke is as you said; too rich of mixture. I know it's very hard to get enough air up in the mountains, and HP suffers greatly. - Dave

I will verify the rotor location. It's been about 10 years since I did this initially and remember being quite anal about it. But that was then. I need the nudge to get my head back into it, so I know that it is right and checked off the list. Thanks!

[deany41]

If the plugs have a dry soot, the mixture is too rich. If it shoots carbon out of the pipes @ start-up, she is too rich. The fact that the tips are clean verifies the ignition upgrade is working.

Also consider a mal-adjusted choke, its' needing service (sticking/binding) or it is not fully opening (possible weak choke thermostat). It may need to be jetted down. Is the heat riser working or possibly frozen shut? How high is it where you live and do you think it is the original carburetor?

Having your distributor re-curved as suggested will also make it run much better.

What do you think of their recommendation on checking the rotor to cap phasing. My only problem is that I can turn the cap 3/16 inch in either direction after the hold down clips are snapped. There was no mention of the gap on the plugs in the install instructions (which was written in the likeness of Finding Waldo)


The choke seems to be working fine. I have it set a couple marks to the lean side. I thought about the jetting down solution, but I haven't been convinced that something isn't so amiss that it should be fouling the plugs to that extent.

I like the idea of setting the mixture with the vacuum guage instead of the screws and definitely the recurve idea. I suspect there are more than one rabbit to chase down before this is solved.

[simplyconnected]

Are you at 4,500-ft in altitude? Is this where you normally drive around?

[KULTULZ]

What do you think of their recommendation on checking the rotor to cap phasing. My only problem is that I can turn the cap 3/16 inch in either direction after the hold down clips are snapped. There was no mention of the gap on the plugs in the install instructions (which was written in the likeness of Finding Waldo)

Phasing is very important, especially when you increase the secondary ignition voltage. Was the coil upgraded also?

You are using quality ignition parts and not CHI-COM stuff from the box stores?

http://www.hotrodhotline.com/md/html/rotorphasing.php

The choke seems to be working fine. I have it set a couple marks to the lean side. I thought about the jetting down solution, but I haven't been convinced that something isn't so amiss that it should be fouling the plugs to that extent.

I like the idea of setting the mixture with the vacuum guage instead of the screws and definitely the recurve idea. I suspect there are more than one rabbit to chase down before this is solved.

This article describes re-curving a distributor. Yours most likely needs an overhaul so you need to find a performance shop that has a re-curving machine (old time) or it can be done on the car as long as the balancer is indexed correctly, a timing tape and a timing light/tach.

http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2000/03/timing/index.shtml

http://www.mustangmonthly.com/techarticles/mump_0702_ford_mustang_distributor_rebuild/

If you are completely satisfied the choke is operating correctly, you might check the power valve for leakage. When you take the cover off and find fuel, it is bad.

OH! What brand plugs are you using and what is their heat range?

[deany41]

Phasing is very important, especially when you increase the secondary ignition voltage. Was the coil upgraded also?

You are using quality ignition parts and not CHI-COM stuff from the box stores?

http://www.hotrodhotline.com/md/html/rotorphasing.php

This article describes re-curving a distributor. Yours most likely needs an overhaul so you need to find a performance shop that has a re-curving machine (old time) or it can be done on the car as long as the balancer is indexed correctly, a timing tape and a timing light/tach.

http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2000/03/timing/index.shtml

http://www.mustangmonthly.com/techarticles/mump_0702_ford_mustang_distributor_rebuild/

If you are completely satisfied the choke is operating correctly, you might check the power valve for leakage. When you take the cover off and find fuel, it is bad.

OH! What brand plugs are you using and what is their heat range?

Addressing some of the questions:
I do operate the car at that altitude Dave. I lose an inch of vacuum for every 1000 ft. right? I get 15 inches at 800 RPM, bouncing to 20 when I rev to 1500 and back.

Yes I do find fuel on the carb. I also find black residue from unburned fuel in the primary. Now I am finding that I can turn the mixture screws to the seat and no change, if anything it runs rough when I back them out again. Thats clearly a problem so I will have to take carb to the bench and clean and inspect....again.

I did recheck the balancer alignment by hand with #1 plug and it is on the money. However by putting the timing light on the wires I found intermittant firing. That's a big problem.

The ignitor is a Crane Cam FireBall XR700 that uses an optical trigger with an ignition module. It is not the high performance model. Did upgrade the coil when I installed. The only adjustment I have is up and down on the trigger to shutter. I ran out of time to check what is going on there. They say to readjust trigger position if out of phase. Since it is up or down only it would mean turning the housing. This unit wasn't a cheap buy 10 years ago. If I can't get this solved into the can it goes and I will be asking what Pertronix others are using (1281?) .
Thanks for the links. I had dug into the Penelope project post the night before and found the recurve link. Very practical, even I understood it.

Thanks for all the input Gary, Dave, John and Mike. First good info I have had in years. Rifle season starts around here Saturday and I need to track down an elk for the freezer. If the snow hits hard I will have to move the car from the shop and wait till spring to get back into it. However I am bugged enough about all this to work nights until the last minute. Haven't put more than 20 miles on the car in 10 years. Too much time and money into it for that. That's going to change. I will get into the member status to upload pics soon.

[KULTULZ]

Addressing some of the questions:

I do operate the car at that altitude Dave. I lose an inch of vacuum for every 1000 ft. right? I get 15 inches at 800 RPM, bouncing to 20 when I rev to 1500 and back.

Depending on your altitude, you may have to re-jet. Does the carb have an I.D. Tag or can you see stampings on the left carb foot?

Yes I do find fuel on the carb. I also find black residue from unburned fuel in the primary. Now I am finding that I can turn the mixture screws to the seat and no change, if anything it runs rough when I back them out again. Thats clearly a problem so I will have to take carb to the bench and clean and inspect....again.

When you take the carb off, do not turn it upside down until you remove the power valve cover (on bottom of primary bowl) and see if it has a puddle of fuel below the actual valve.

I did recheck the balancer alignment by hand with #1 plug and it is on the money. However by putting the timing light on the wires I found intermittant firing. That's a big problem.

The ignitor is a Crane Cam FireBall XR700 that uses an optical trigger with an ignition module. It is not the high performance model. Did upgrade the coil when I installed. The only adjustment I have is up and down on the trigger to shutter. I ran out of time to check what is going on there.

You may have mis-fire due to plug fouling and/or bad wires, cap and/or rotor. Buy quality parts.

DURASPARK II is the best to use IMO. But it can distract from the origional stock appearance. PERTRONIX IGNITOR II is what you want (again IMO) and their HP coil can be painted to appear as an original AUTOLITE coil.

If the snow hits hard I will have to move the car from the shop and wait till spring to get back into it.

You are going to leave her outside for the winter season? How cruel can you be?

[deany41]

Depending on your altitude, you may have to re-jet. Does the carb have an I.D. Tag or can you see stampings on the left carb foot?

When you take the carb off, do not turn it upside down until you remove the power valve cover (on bottom of primary bowl) and see if it has a puddle of fuel below the actual valve.

You may have mis-fire due to plug fouling and/or bad wires, cap and/or rotor. Buy quality parts.

DURASPARK II is the best to use IMO. But it can distract from the origional stock appearance. PERTRONIX IGNITOR II is what you want (again IMO) and their HP coil can be painted to appear as an original AUTOLITE coil.



You are going to leave her outside for the winter season? How cruel can you be?

I have to garage the TBird in an unheated building so I have my truck available for use in the winter. I plan on removing the carb soon to clean and inspect over winter. I will check the power valve and the stamping. The current jetting is set for the 0-5000 ft. Since we are at 4600 I will try the 51 and 58 jets.

Most of my ignition parts came out of NAPA. Forgot to respond on the type of plug. They are Autolite 45 (heat range 5). I have three sets, clean them once and re-use them, then discard.

The intermittant firing mentioned earlier was caused by the optical trigger being loose on the mounting bracket. There is a tiny screw that holds it into position in relation to the shutter. The screw was stripped so I replaced it. Still this is a cheezy way of mounting something so critical. Hence I am going to can it and try the Pertronix next spring.

Although the motor ran better (I had changed the plugs prior to running motor, checked timing, etc) there is still unburned fuel and I am still getting fouled plugs and carbon build up.

Will pull the distributer and check it out. Likely find a shop to help on the recurve part.

I have a vacuum line from the manifold that runs to the tranny, which is where I check the vacuum. When I open that line the engine immediately increases by about 250 rpm and runs nicely. Does anyone know what that is telling me? I know it is getting more air but isn't that what the carb should be doing.

Thanks for the help.