Engine Identification

[KULTULZ]

RE: Engine Identification - UPDATE

>The intake manifold is cast marked 5750034, it should (I
>think) be marked 5751037.

Frank,

I was perusing this site early this morning and came across an excellent tech article...

http://www.squarebirds.org/users/johng/OCC.htm

...describing John G's recounting of his 1958 BIRD 352 overhaul. In it you will see he has the same intake and a brief description of his having a later hydraulic lifter engine;

Excerpt-

"This shot shows the block casting number as the motor is upside down and out in the sun. The top number reads 5750603 indicating it is a 1958 352 motor with hydraulic lifters. The number underneath is the date of manufacture, 1958, May, 13., 2nd shift. This is correct for my chasis, which also has a May 20, 1958 scheduled production date."

The fifth character on the intake manifold Casting I.D. No. is hard (for me) to read. I cannot determine if it is a 3 or an 8. But this should ease your mind as to whether the engine is correct for the car. He also shows 5751034. The 5751087 (or 37) casting I.D. I previously mentioned was from a 1959 352.

Still working on the carburetor.

[tmjsong1aolcom]

RE: Engine Identification

The intake 5750034 was a casting number used for 1958 352 engines. The other number was 5751087. The date code 7A H as I can read it decodes to 1957 January 8th. There is another character in the last position that I cannot make out. I have not seen the last char. on 58 intake manifolds that I have.

Head This works for a 352 but does not gurantee it 7A L decodes
1957 january 11. The date codes that are documented so far for 58's are located between 2 & 3 cylinders as this one, but under the valve cover just over the lip. Therefore this date code appears in the wrong position if it was a 58 tbird 352 engine.

The block code next.

Fuz
58's&64's
Sun Prairie, Wi.

[frank58]

RE: Engine Identification - UPDATE

You know, I read John's (well written) Bird story a while back, before I had engine concerns.... I didn't think to compare some of the numbers. Well, one thing for sure, we certainly have the same manifolds. The carb seems to be the weak (maybe) point now. I have looked all over trying to find info on what 1958 Ford had a 352 with solid lifters and a carter carb... no luck. I sure do appreciate all your help...

[tmjsong1aolcom]

RE: Engine Identification

Embossed Date code by dip stick

This decodes 1-7APO 1 is cleveland as noted earlier 7 is 1957, A is January, P is 14 and the last one is the person who either inspected the engine or built the engine. All this fits this engine but whether it a 352, who knows. The chances of this engine getting into a 58 bird at the factory in highly unlikely. More likely this is a Standard Ford engine. Another clue comes from the position of the Vacuum brass piece near the carb. If this was a bird engine this would be in the left front of the intake near cylinder #5.

Fuz
58's&64's
Sun Prairie, Wi.

[frank58]

RE: Engine Identification

thanks for the help trying to decifer all of this.....Here is something that has just been brought to my attention.
I quote:

"The "A" in the codes is for the month of November for both the assembly and casting dates. Ford apparently was in a transition period during the fall of 1957 on how to date-code their castings and assemblies, as the second digit used numbers from 1-9 for January-September, 0 for October, A for November and B for December. With this being the case, a mid-late November '57 assembly date would make sense for an early 352."

I did kinda think that January of 1957 was a little early to be casting/assembling 1958 engines. I believe that the engine is all original to itself (probably out of a full size). But the remaining question seems to be, What 1958 Ford product had a 352 with solid lifters and a carter AFB?

[tmjsong1aolcom]

RE: Engine Identification

I posted a couple posts earlier that are incorrect. I reviewing the VTCI revision I made a mistake The A in second position should be decoded as November.

Heads 7A L deodes as 7 is 1957, A is November, L is day 11. As noted earlier the date code appears to be in the wrong place but as noted this is a solid lifter engine.

Intake 7A H 7 is 1957, A is November, H is day 8

Block embossment 1-7APO 1 is cleveland as noted, 7 is 1957, A is november, and P is day 14, with O being the inspector.

Engine Block looks like 78 Y or 79 Y should decode 7 as 1957, 8 or 9 aug or sept, and Y as day 21.

This puts this engine closer to the production of this bird but knowing what little evidence we have so far this engine was built to far in advance of the build date of the bird from the data plate. It appears that about 1 month prior to the build date of the bird would be about the max time the engine assembly date would be before the build date of the bird. Just a guidline.

From what has been documented, the only carb used on the birds was the autolite 4100. Exports are in ???

Steve Christ has a book out on big block fords that gives much engine decoding info and how to figure out what you have.

Fuz
58's&64's
Sun Prairie, Wi.

[tmjsong1aolcom]

RE: Engine Identification

Did a bit more review of the engine block casting number. I do not find the edc 6015 listed for thunderbirds. Need to find the steve christ book but right noe it eluding me.

Fuz

[KULTULZ]

Date Codes

I was wondering where you got this FE early date code interpretation? MEL Division used a similiar system before Casting I.D. and date codes were changed in 1959 to the type most of us are more familiar with. The system was fully explained in a LINC-MERC TSB.

This is an earlier post from the MEL ENGINE FORUM;

http://www.motorhouse.org/%20Forum%20Post%20Bilder/MEL%20Forum/Photo%20Albums/Mel%20Engine%20fresh%20up%20gallery%202/16.09.0316.jpg

The ENGINE DATE CODE (date of casting) is explained in LINC/MERC 1958 Service Bulletin No. 8.

J4 94YY (The actual date code on the early MEL was on the left front skirt. The photo is showing the right side skirt)

The first character is the Foundry Plant...

I believe yours starts with the 4, not the J (not sure of it's meaning) and that would be Lima.

The second character is the Year (1959)...

The third character Month (April)

The fourth character DAY (24)

The fifth character Plant Inspector...

Was your source found in a restoration text or a TSB?

[KULTULZ]

Block Casting I.D.

>Did a bit more review of the engine block casting number. I
>do not find the edc 6015 listed for thunderbirds. Need to
>find the steve christ book but right noe it eluding me.
>
>Fuz

This is interesting as there may possibly be two separate casting numbers if the engine was solid or hydraulic. Usually on a solid FE, FORD restricted the oil flow to the lifters by using plugs in the oil galleys.

Without the 58 MPC, it is going to be hard to determine the carb issue. Seeing as how the 58 BIRD was not introduced (I have read) until NOV 57, it may well be that the BIRD did not see a mechanical version. This may possibly be a 1958 FAIRLANE engine.

Still working on the carburetor...

[tmjsong1aolcom]

RE: Engine Identification

Reviewed the parts books and Ford interchange manual too see where the carb led 9603 is the base number for a spacer plate. Going thru the books the one you have equates to part number B8A-9603-B1. This numer is not listed in any of the parts books I have.

5750068 crosses to B8A-9510-F Parts book says new number 1958 A which is most of the ford line 352 engine 4/B identified by 5750068 or EDT-9510-D stamped on front face of air cleaner mounting flange replaced by B6A-9510-Q

Carburetor catalog symbol 72.

From this info it did not come on a bird which is consistant with Ford lit the bird engine only used the 4100 for the 352.

From all this info I would say your engine et all was a transplant from a standard ford car.

Sorry about the info.

Fuz
58's&64's
Sun Prairie, Wi.


PS the info was obtained from a up to june 1959 parts book with the pages dates revised june 1959.

[KULTULZ]

RE: Engine Identification

>From all this info I would say your engine et all was a
>transplant from a standard ford car.
>
>Sorry about the info.
>
>Fuz
>58's&64's
>Sun Prairie, Wi.
>
>
>PS the info was obtained from a up to june 1959 parts book
>with the pages dates revised june 1959.

Very good reference work done....

Alexander,

Is there a supreme judging reference on these BIRDS before this gentlemans' engine installation is condemed?

Now on the other hand, if the installation is not correct, I would think the engine by itself would be very desirable to someone.

[Alexander]

RE: Engine Identification

I willl look through the Steve Christ book on big block Fords to see waht they have listed for the block shown here, but I think it only identifies the engine type, not what car line it was installed in.

I do agree, as a solid lifter FE engine, it is a valuable motor.

Alexander
1959 Hardtop
1960 Golde Top

[KULTULZ]

RE: Engine Identification

>I willl look through the Steve Christ book on big block
>Fords to see waht they have listed for the block shown here,
>but I think it only identifies the engine type, not what car
>line it was installed in.
>
>I do agree, as a solid lifter FE engine, it is a valuable
>motor.
>
>Alexander
>1959 Hardtop
>1960 Golde Top

I had hoped you had a technical source (for judging, etc) that would tell if this early version engine was available in the very early 58 BIRD.

I have asked the question of when the design changeover was made on the FE Forum. Hopefully between your resource text and the pros over there, we can come to a definite conclusion before condemning this installation.

Whoever does have an early edition (49/59) of the FORD MPC, Basic Part No. 6010 (bare block) may give a clue as how many blocks there might have been and to which car lines installed.

I have to update my early catalogs...

[Alexander]

RE: Engine Identification

A 352 solid lifter engine with a Carter carburetor is unknown up until now, so it would not be in any judging sheets. People could order cars special order back then and also they were not as strict as now with engine choices as they are now. Each engine did not need to be certified for each car as now. Conceivably, this engine may have been placed in production there was a shortage of hydraulic engines. Then again with the wide disparity of date of the engine with the production of this car, the engine may have been a transplant. Maybe the transplant even took place when the car was new. Hey, I have seen a 1959 T-Bird with Y-Block V8.

Alexander
1959 Hardtop
1960 Golde Top

[KULTULZ]

THANX ALEXANDER!

I just hate to condemn the installation and all the while it might have been legal.

Did you take pictures of the Y-BLOCK installation? I bet that surprised you when you walked up on it...