New motor running hot

[davidmij]

Hey Gents, I finally fired up my new motor (1967 390). The builder said to start it and run it at 2000 RPM for 20 minutes. I got to about 10 minutes and it reached 230 degree and was very hot, so, I shut it down.
My father-in law said the fan clutch was shot and that it wasn't spinning no where near fast enough. Is that enough to make it get so hot so fast?

Also, I think understand the coolant flow in the engine, however what does the short nozzle between the intake manifold and the pump do?

One more, what is the purpose of running the engine so high for 20 minutes? I thought it was so the hydraulic lifters and rest of the engine get good oil flow. I was told once that if you don't do that you can ruin your cam.

I let it cool down for an hour, drained the water, then added a gallon of anti freeze and ran it again. This time it got up to 220 degrees in 5 minutes so I shut it down again. I wanted to get some anti freeze in the block. It's supposed to get in the low 30's tonight and I didn't want to risk a freeze.

thx, Dave J

[simplyconnected]

Was the cooling system pressurized?
Yes, a declutched fan will make it run hot BUT, the purpose of the clutch is to slow the fan down as rpms go up. High rpms should mean that the car is running down the road.

2,000 rpm should run your car about 40 mph (or more). That is not fast for an engine. At 40, there should be enough wind going through your radiator to cool it without a fan (on these cool days). Sitting stagnant and running the engine in the driveway, I would run a garden hose with light/medium flow over the rad just to pull some of the heat away. That's another reason why I like electric fans; they only run when the coolant gets hot.

BTW, what's your oil pressure at idle, and above 1,500 rpm? I hope you have a small mechanical oil pressure gauge screwed in. - Dave

[davidmij]

Yes, the system was under pressure, as a matter of fact the overflow tank developed a small "hiss" leak when it got really hot.

I'm embarrassed to say that I don't have an oil pressure gauge hooked up. I do have a new sensor and the idiot light though. Before starting the motor I turned the oil pump counter clockwise with a drill and 1/4 inch socket through the dizzy hole. After about 5 seconds I could definitely feel it develop pressure and bog down the drill a little as it pumped oil.

I never had overheat problems with the fan (in the summer) on the old engine. However I never ran the engine at 2000 rpm just sitting still before either.
I guess I can start it in the morning when it's 35 degrees outside and just let it idle to see the temp???

Do you think it's OK to just idle it now? Do you think it had enough time and heat for the break in?

Thx Dave

[scumdog]

Check your timing - too far retarded and its 'Chernobyll City' under the hood, trust me...

[davidmij]

That's good to know Tom, thx!

I was told to get it running for 20 minutes and then let it idle and do the tuning, timing, etc.

Both times when it was over heating I turned it off it sputtered and popped twice out the exhaust, most likely too rich. I'm going to fire it up in the morning and set the timing. Then adjust the idle, let it warm up and do it again step by step. Hopefully it will help.

Time for bed here, (11:00pm) you should go have a pint and some lunch.

regards, Dave J

[simplyconnected]

Dave, you need to know proper start-up and break-in procedures. Check out how Hastings Piston Ring company says to do it:
CLICK HERE

At Ford, we use Hastings (and have for many decades). Notice they want you to load the engine. They didn't say to run your engine fast but you do need to put a load on the engine to properly break-in rings.

They use the start-up procedure to tune the engine, so you can run the car. This is important. Start-up will tell if the engine has any immediate faults that need attention (like oil leaks, funny noises, etc.). We call this, "Hot Testing" the engine. Every single engine at Ford is loaded and tuned in the engine plant, and they all better be good before going to assembly.

At home, we don't have that luxury so you need to run the car.

After your initial break-in, simply run the car like any new car owner would. I would not let it sit running for 20 minutes. The engine needs a variety of speeds to let it settle-in.

Let me repeat, "The object is to apply a load to the engine for short periods of time and in rapid succession soon after engine warm up. This action thrusts the piston rings against the cylinder wall with increased pressure and results in accelerated ring seating."

This procedure will affect your engine for a very long time. Done right, your new overhaul should last at least ten years of hard service. - Dave

[davidmij]

Thx Dave!
That's exactly what I had read on several sites. Run it for 20 minutes at 1800-2000. Then take it out and drive it up to 30mph and let off the gas to slow down. Then repeat. Some said to do that for a while and then move up to 50 mph and let it slow down, then back up.

The engine builder is Doug Anderson in Albuquerque. He's a very well respected and established builder in NM. He said I could do it that way too, or I could just run it for 20 minutes as I did and then just drive as normal, just don't go hot rodding it for the first 300 to 500 miles. He said that would be the best way to break in the clutch too. He said that molly rings seat themselves pretty well and it should be fine.

I'm just concerned with how hot it got. I'm going to do as I said and tune it etc and then see if it gets very hot. Then take it for a spin staying close to the house in case it overheats again.
If you remember my other posts it is a bit of a performance build. 390 with a bored 30 over with a 428 crank. A Lunati Cobra jet cam (the builder said he didn't want to go any wilder than that because of our high altitude and my need for vacuum for the power disc brakes). Cobra jet exhaust valves and comp springs in the c4ae-6090g heads. Edelbrock rpm performer intake and 750 carb. FPA headers.

thx a ton, hopefully it's the timing thing that scumdog spoke of.

[davidmij]

Hmm, I can only get it to idle if I go about 20 degrees on my timing, and the idle is still around 800 which is too high. I also have to floor it to start it otherwise it just cranks and doesn't fire. When it shuts down it spurts out the carb and backfires.

Could I be a tooth off on the dizzy? Or will a motor even start like that? Once again my lack of car knowledge is letting me down.

While trying all this I ran it for a total of maybe 5 -6 minutes, and it shot up 230 degrees. Is there anyway to tell for sure that your thermostat is opening?

When I first started it yesterday I did so with the radiator cap off. It started gurgling and spitting water out, and then it just flowed out the cap. I thought this was due to air trapped in the motor, and as the air got hotter and boiled it pushed the water back out. But I really don't know.

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated, I'm starting to worry about ruining this new motor.

thx again, Dave J

[davidmij]

OK, the latest. I read on the HAMB that if you use the ported vacuum line on the carb it can mess up idling and cause a retard that can cause overheating at idle.

Edelbrock says to use the ported one so that's where I was. As soon as I switched to the full vacuum port it the car started and idles fine. However, I was at about 20 degrees still, sooo I put the timing to 10 or 11 and it almost stalled. Soooo, I turned up the carb idle and it stays running nicely. However, it still gets really hot so I had to shut it down again.

As soon as it cools to 150 again I'll try adjusting the carb idle screws.

Dave J

[davidmij]

Started it up with the rad cap open and it gets up to 220 degrees. Tried adjusting the timing but to get it to stay running at 12 degrees before TBC I have to set the idle screw to run at about 1000 rpm.

Took it for a spin and it would cool down to about 210while cruising about 40 mph. So. at least the cooling is working, it's just running hot and I can't get the thing to idle at 700 rpm without stalling.

Scratching my head, time start over.

thx, Dave

[DKheld]

David,

Which radiator are you using - the original? - sorry can't remember. I had quite a bit of trouble with my original and after getting a replacement I can see that the flow is many times better on the new one. If you have an IR gun you can check the tubes on the old one and see if any are stopped up.

Do you have a standard fan off one of the old engines you can install temporarily? It will roar going down the road but might help cool at the slower speeds without the clutch.

I've read that new engines run hotter for a time until they are broken in so since it cools down maybe that's all it is. I know what you mean though - don't want to ruin it guessing.

You can definitely be off a tooth on the distributor and it will still run. Had that trouble on mine when I transferred it to the new engine.

Hope you find the trouble quick and get a chance to try that speedo out.

Eric

[jopizz]

OK, the latest. I read on the HAMB that if you use the ported vacuum line on the carb it can mess up idling and cause a retard that can cause overheating at idle.

Edelbrock says to use the ported one so that's where I was. As soon as I switched to the full vacuum port it the car started and idles fine. However, I was at about 20 degrees still, sooo I put the timing to 10 or 11 and it almost stalled. Soooo, I turned up the carb idle and it stays running nicely. However, it still gets really hot so I had to shut it down again.

As soon as it cools to 150 again I'll try adjusting the carb idle screws.

Dave J

You should set the timing with the vacuum disconnected and plugged and the idle speed around 500 rpm so there's no mechanical advance. If you can't keep it running at that low an idle then something is amiss. 12 degrees is pretty advanced. I would shoot for 8-10. If you are seeing 20 degrees of advance at 1000 rpm with the vacuum connected that is about normal. The distributor picks up about 8 degrees of mechanical advance and about 2 degrees of vacuum advance at 1000 rpm.

I also use the full vacuum port. I find that my car runs cooler and idles smoother that way. The original Ford 4100 carburetor uses full vacuum at idle.

John

[davidmij]

Well I got it sorted out (I think). After it cooled down I added more coolant and it took a bunch, about 5 to 6 quarts. I also set the timing, adjusted the idle, set the timing again, adjusted the idle and idle screws. Then I took it for a good spin, it dropped down to 190 and stayed there! YES

While in forth gear I drove at 35 to 40 then let off the gas and coasted to about 25, did that over and over for about 20 minutes. Got home, re set the timing, the idle, got it down to about 600 rpm. By the way, I had forgotten to disconnect the vacuum advance and plug it! I read several threads that said a new motor will run hot too. Sooo, I had ordered a new clutch fan from Autozone yesterday and will install it even though I think the old one is OK. The old one is from 1967 so it can't hurt to replace it. I think the radiator is OK, especially with the 67 shroud.

I'm beat, spent the last two 3 day weekends installing this motor, trans, etc all by myself. It was monster and I'm beat. Hopefully I can drive it and break it in a little here and there after work for the next couple of weeks - as well as fine tune it here and there.

Thx for the help everyone, hopefully I can break it in nice and easy and have a fine runner next Spring.

Dave J

[jopizz]

Glad you got it sorted out. Just make sure you don't add too much coolant. The level should be near the bottom of the overflow tank to allow for expansion. If you put your finger down the fill hole it should just touch the tip of it.

John

[scumdog]

OK, the latest. I read on the HAMB that if you use the ported vacuum line on the carb it can mess up idling and cause a retard that can cause overheating at idle.

Edelbrock says to use the ported one so that's where I was. As soon as I switched to the full vacuum port it the car started and idles fine. However, I was at about 20 degrees still, sooo I put the timing to 10 or 11 and it almost stalled. Soooo, I turned up the carb idle and it stays running nicely. However, it still gets really hot so I had to shut it down again.

As soon as it cools to 150 again I'll try adjusting the carb idle screws.

Dave J

Ignore ported vacuum totally - it has NO place in cars such as this and is a smog-only item, a crutch to lower emmisions.