disc coversion k/H under dash puzziled

[DKheld]

Yea John - I probably should have said .....

"The master cyl should move the caliper pistons even without the booster" rather than using that 4 letter word (work)

Eric

[jopizz]

I just feel sorry for people who spend good money on these untested systems. I notice on their website there are no reviews on these Ford systems. They also don't know that there was no such thing as a "Galaxie" in 1957. It's rediculous that they have the same kit from 1957-1966 regardless of the model.

John

[Tbird1044]

I always get a little chuckle when I read all these threads on brakes and stopping pressure required. I have a friend that just turned 81, and he has a 1964 Ford Country Squire station wagon, talk about a beast, that has been in the family since new. The car has the 352 eng. with factory air but MANUAL 4 wheel drum brakes. He's still driving the car and to my knowledge the car has never been in an accident. I have borrowed the car to move some things, and you definitely need to be aware of the stopping distance required, but if you keep a heads up, it's do able.
God bless old school, but I am thankful for modern technology.
Nyles

[jopizz]

There are plenty of new cars in the junkyard that prove that even the best brakes can't overcome a careless driver.

John

[YellowRose]

disc coversion k/H under dash puzziled

I would like to suggest to anyone who is contemplating converting their drum brakes to disc brakes to talk with us who have done this conversion BEFORE you go out and plunk a lot of money down on a aftermarket system that might not work for you... A number of us have gone through this conversion process in the past, using parts from various manufacturers, and various years, and from various cars. We saved a lot of money by doing it that way and can tell you what parts to get... So save yourself some grief, and expense and talk with us first. Then decide what you want to do.

[Tbird1044]

The Scarebird brackets seem to be a good compromise. You buy the conversion brackets and then go to the auto parts store to purchase factory parts for rotors and calipers. I like the fact of using parts that are readily available. A friend is looking at a Wilwood system and the price of the conversion isn't too bad. Then I looked at replacement parts for the system and they really get you. It's like buying a cheap inkjet printer and then paying a fortune for the ink.
Ray, it's good info that you are still using the KH booster with the disc conversion. Sounds like you have had that setup for a while now. It may not give the soft pedal touch of a new car, but if it works, it works.
Nyles

[simplyconnected]

Here come the fireworks, John...
By trade, I'm an Electrician and I have seen atrocities that would make your hair stand straight up and you would seek immediate cover. Along with these gross violations I hear, 'don't argue with success.' I'm here to tell you that just because it works doesn't make it right OR SAFE even if you like shakin' dice. In this gamble you have everything to lose and nothing to gain.

Again, John is right about leaving the booster off of disk brakes. They need the biggest booster you can fit under the hood of your Squarebird. How big? The original power brake booster for shoes was a single stage and 10" in diameter, and it was miserably inadequate for drum brakes. Disk brakes need much more boost, which requires a bigger booster. The best we can fit is a two-stage 8" booster (which also measures 10" on the outer diameter). If a nine or ten inch dual booster would fit I would highly recommend them as well, but they won't.

A two-stage 8" works wonders in our '59 Galaxie Fordor, and Squarebird guys with the same setup will verify: I can lock up all four wheels on dry cement if a little kid squirts out between parked cars in front of me.

Recently, two members retrofit their systems using NO combination proportioning valve. They both claim the brakes work great without the valve. Again, John is on the money... If the big 3 could do without this expensive valve they would.

Without the valve, your split system has no common denominator. The combination valve is plumbed with both front and rear systems, using a mechanical spool in between both. If you lose front or rear, the spool shifts, cutting off the 'bad' side so you don't lose your brake fluid and it connects an electrical path for a warning light.

You guys with no valve have no metering function as well. Metering turns on the rear brakes first, then the front, then both together. This stops 'nosedive'. When your rear brakes wear down and come out of adjustment, they simply won't work and you won't realize it because the fronts will do all the braking. Your M/C has only one tandem spool. Which ever system locks up first, the other system won't get any more oil flow. Because calipers don't retract (but shoes do), it will be the rear system that will gradually fail to work.

To me (and to the auto manufacturers) this is an important safely concern that should be corrected. Just because your brakes feel ok right now without the valve, does not make it function properly. In fact your system is unsafe. Use a combination valve even if you tame it all the way down, to control both systems.

BTW, our Fordor Galaxie came with manual brakes, manual steering and 'three on the tree'. This old monster used to require LOTS of room to stop. Not any more...

Ray, I sent you 12-volt flashing LEDs (a few times) for your brake warning light. Did you ever hook any of them up to your combination valve? - Dave

[jacob80]

They should work without the booster. I've had lots of British cars with manual front disc brakes.

If the car is not running (producing vacuum assist to the booster) and the pedal is still soft there is still air in the system.

Just a reference guess but if it takes 100lbs of pressure on the pedal to stop the car without the booster it should take less pressure (on the pedal) with the "booster assistance". The under dash booster will help but probably won't provide enough boost to make the system feel like a modern disc brake setup. I have the original Bendix booster (modified to accept a new style master cyl) under the hood and it works fine - probably requires more pedal pressure than the new dual boosters but I like mine as is.

The pic in that link doesn't show a proportioning valve only an adjustable rear residual valve. I'm guessing you did you re-plumb the system and split it by taking out the junction on the frame? Needs to be separate systems front and back now with the addition of front discs.

Eric

I have installed a SSBC distribution block (SSB-A0730) that houses a proportioning valve and a brake light sensor inside it.

I have bench bled the master 4 times and bled all the brake cylinders about double that. I know there's no air in this system and there are no leaks.

I'm on the phone with summit now and they're speaking with SSBC.

[jacob80]

I just spoke with SSBC and they state that their kit is designed for cars without and any kind of power brake booster in the system and I need a rod that goes directly from the brake pedal to the back of the master cylinder.

Can I achieve this by simply slipping the under-dash booster out behind the firewall like you stated, leaving a rod directly from the pedal to the master cylinder?

[jacob80]

I just spoke with SSBC and they state that their kit is designed for cars without and any kind of power brake booster in the system and I need a rod that goes directly from the brake pedal to the back of the master cylinder.

Can I achieve this by simply slipping the under-dash booster out behind the firewall like you stated, leaving a rod directly from the pedal to the master cylinder?

Looks like there IS a rod that runs directly to the back of the master cylinder. how the heck does that under dash booster even work? It isn't even connected to the master cylinder! Is that really even a brake booster??

[simplyconnected]

Maybe between your expert friends at Summit and SSBC, they can come up with a system that works for you. I will NEVER condone running a disk brake system on a Squarebird without a substantial vacuum power booster.

The power brake system that came on your car from the factory was never adequate for the car. At least it had a treadle-vac power assist for the drum brakes. If it's any consolation, Chevy used the same treadle-vac system and theirs was inadequate as well.

Bottom line is, it's your car to do what you want. I suggest you leave yourself plenty of room to stop, avoid rush hour traffic and neighborhoods where kids are playing. - Dave

[jacob80]

Maybe between your expert friends at Summit and SSBC, they can come up with a system that works for you. I will NEVER condone running a disk brake system on a Squarebird without a substantial vacuum power booster.

The power brake system that came on your car from the factory was never adequate for the car. At least it had a treadle-vac power assist for the drum brakes. If it's any consolation, Chevy used the same treadle-vac system and theirs was inadequate as well.

Bottom line is, it's your car to do what you want. I suggest you leave yourself plenty of room to stop, avoid rush hour traffic and neighborhoods where kids are playing. - Dave

Experts? You're being too generous...numb skulls is more like it!

I think I will go ahead and order the PBUF5772. It looks like it has the pedal rod, bracket, booster, and master cylinder I need to power my disk brakes up front and drums out back. It appears another member on this forum had some success with this here:

http://home.comcast.net/~y-block/Scarebird-MBM/HowardWheel/default.html

If someone has anything to say before I move forward with this, by all means, please let me know.

Thank you!

[Yellowbird]

I just changed from drum to discs on my '58. I went with ABS Power Brake (www.abspowerbrake.com). Their part number for Thunderbirds is 9787 1954-64 Full Size Ford, 8" Dual Dia. Booster Combo.

Cost was $295 for bracket, booster and m/c. Mounted up with no issues.

You might want to look at what they have to offer.

[simplyconnected]

...It appears another member on this forum had some success with this here:

http://home.comcast.net/~y-block/Sca...l/default.html...

Yes, Howard Prout lives just outside Niagara Falls, Canada. He drove to my house outside Detroit for two reasons; he wanted to try his 14" Granada wheels on my Scarebird setup and to receive his 2-stage 8" booster/master/bracket I got in the mail.

Howard lives ~3.5 hrs. from me. My Galaxie spindles are identical to Squarebird's (same part numbers).

I threw these pictures together into a site to show the correct 14" wheels and brake line we use in the rust belt and how easy it is to invert-flare. The firewall bracket you see did NOT work, even with the extra holes we drilled. Howard made his own firewall bracket that he has been using for a couple years now, on his Squarebird.


This is my wife's '59 Galaxie with Howard trying his wheel.

Leonard has a good suggestion for the parts you need. I don't like the caliper brackets but the booster might be ok. - Dave

[jacob80]

Yes, Howard Prout lives just outside Niagara Falls, Canada. He drove to my house outside Detroit for two reasons; he wanted to try his 14" Granada wheels on my Scarebird setup and to receive his 2-stage 8" booster/master/bracket I got in the mail.

Howard lives ~3.5 hrs. from me. My Galaxie spindles are identical to Squarebird's (same part numbers).

I threw these pictures together into a site to show the correct 14" wheels and brake line we use in the rust belt and how easy it is to invert-flare. The firewall bracket you see did NOT work, even with the extra holes we drilled. Howard made his own firewall bracket that he has been using for a couple years now, on his Squarebird.


This is my wife's '59 Galaxie with Howard trying his wheel.

Leonard has a good suggestion for the parts you need. I don't like the caliper brackets but the booster might be ok. - Dave

Ah ok - learn something new everyday.

Sounds like Yellowbird's solution is the ticket. I think I'll go with that unit!