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Squarebirds, Rocketbirds, and Fifties/Sixties Ford Discussion Forum (http://squarebirds.org/vbulletin/index.php)
-   1958 To 1960 Squarebirds - General Technical Discussion (http://squarebirds.org/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=14)
-   -   Upper Suspension ( control ) Arm Bushings, Rear (http://squarebirds.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=8754)

Anders 05-11-2010 01:12 PM

Upper Suspension ( control ) Arm Bushings, Rear
 
After having quite a "klonk" sound for a while, I found out that the bushings to the Upper Control Arm in the rear of my ī58 pretty much is gone. :eek:
Now, Looking for new ones ended up as a much harder than I thought.
In the end, the only Vendor who seems to have it in there catalog is Thunderbird Headquarter. I have mailed a few other but they donīt have it.
The "only" problem for me, is not that I donīt want to order from TBHQ, but the price. Most Rubber bushings seems to be priced quite fair around a few bucks each, but these ones are a tough one to take. They want 108 dollars for a pair, and I need 2 pairs... :(
Now, Is there any one out there who know if there is another bushing that might fit or have some tip how to fix this for less bucks :o

simplyconnected 05-11-2010 03:30 PM

Anders, I'm a little baffled. A HUNDRED BUCKS??? (picking myself up off the floor)

Check out this part number:
B8S-3068

It is an Upper Control Arm Bushing for a 1958-60 Thunderbird.

Mac's has 36 of them for US$6.95/each + shipping.

Am I missing something here? A lot of vendors have this part. Does your car have Air Bag Suspension? - Dave

RustyNCa 05-11-2010 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by simplyconnected (Post 44649)
Anders, I'm a little baffled. A HUNDRED BUCKS??? (picking myself up off the floor)

Check out this part number:
B8S-3068

It is an Upper Control Arm Bushing for a 1958-60 Thunderbird.

Mac's has 36 of them for US$6.95/each + shipping.

Am I missing something here? A lot of vendors have this part. Does your car have Air Bag Suspension? - Dave

Yes, I think you have the front control arm bushing, Anders is talking about the rear bushing.

Anders, I didn't think they were even available, there aren't many of our 58's around so I would guess the higher cost is due to the limited market and hence the higher production costs to make a small run of parts.

I would guess that I am not to far behind you though in needing to replace those bushings. :(

tbird430 05-11-2010 05:13 PM

1958's have a rarer coil spring/trailer arm rear suspsension system instead of the 1959-60 rear leaf spring type.

I didn't know you could buy ANY 1958 rear suspension bushing seperate. I've only heard of the entire (pricey) kits!

:eek:

simplyconnected 05-11-2010 05:15 PM

1 Attachment(s)
I don't mean to be contrary, but all my Ford books show the SAME bushing is required FOUR times on a 1958 Thunderbird. ('S' denotes, Thunderbird, 'A' denotes, All)

That means LH, RH, front, and rear bushings are the same.

Mac's agrees as well.

Anders 05-11-2010 05:25 PM

That would be GREAT news. Macīs is the only who have not answered my mail so far.

Negative from Larrys ( but as usual, Mike Fisher spend time looking for other replacements ), negative from Dennis Carpenters and positive from TBHQ so far.
Dennis Carpenter did however suggested looking at www.kanter.com
But Iīm only in here for a few minutes to bring my Shop Manual back out to the garage, where I am trying to get the bolts out so I can have a look and measure.
NOT easy to get the bolts loose......:o

Thankīs for the effort all. Please let them flow;)

YellowRose 05-11-2010 06:19 PM

Upper Suspension ( control ) Arm Bushings, Rear
 
Anders, I have been researching this for you. So far, I have talked with Bird Nest, Bob's Bird House, Concours Parts, Pat Wilson's, Dennis Carpenter, MAC's, Green Sales, Obsolete Parts, Tbird Products, Tbirds Southwest, Classic Cars Unlimited, partsetal and Rare Parts in California. So far, no luck. Several of them are doing some checking for me and will get back with me. However, Doug at Dennis Carpenter told me that his parts books shows that the rear Arm & Bushing Assembly for the rear upper control arm on a '58 Tbird is Part # B8S-5500-A. That part consists of a new control arm with the bushings on it. However, Don at Bird Nest told me that about the only way you are going to find that is as part of a bushing kit. He also told me that the bushings for the front cannot be used in the rear. They are different bushings in the rear.

I have been searching by that part number, but, so far, no one has it. Except that Rare Parts in California might... They have a Part #17846 which they call a rubber sleeve, which might be the rubber bushings. But the cost on that is $250.45 just for the bushings. Their Phone number is 209-948-6005 email alex@rareparts.com Bird Nest has the whole replacement kit, but it is like $795!

I am going to look for that part number that Dave gave us, but I was told that the four rubber bushings for the rear are NOT the same as those on the front, and neither are the control arms. Aren't there four rubber bushings for the front control arms? Two per side. If so, then you would think that kit would say 8 instead of 4. But then again, if they are the same bushings, one would have to order two kits, I guess, one kit for the front and one for the back? However, as I said, I am told that the front bushings are different from the rear bushings...

Back to hunting...

I just talked with Kanter. They do not show the rear upper control arm bushings in their stock. However, they were closing, and she is going to do some more looking tomorrow, not only for the bushings, but to see if they happen to have the rear control arms with the bushings in place.... She will let me know.

Dave, do your books say anything about the REAR Suspension Upper Arm Inner Shaft? Could that be Group 3062 instead of 3068? There must be a Group for the rear suspension.

It only gets worse... I just talked with the Vintage T-Bird Sanctuary up in Oregon. They also have the bushings kit that does both sides, upper and lower. $841.29 for the kit. This, like Bird Nests, I think, is just the bushings, nothing else.

tbirds8 05-11-2010 08:18 PM

This was on here before and if I remember it wasn't easy! Eventually somebody will find a gm part that will work. Hate to say that@#%^^$

partsetal 05-11-2010 08:57 PM

These rear suspension bits for the 58 were a low volume item and Ford was the only manufacturer/supplier of them. Now, 52 years later the NOS parts have dried up and some specialty houses have made complete sets, Rare Parts being the only one I know of. Over the past 5 years I have heard from 3 individuals who said they were going to make their own and several sets for me. None have been able to do so. I've provided samples and even the special sized tubing to bond the rubber to, but the projects have died on the vine. I know their cars are still being restored and they may get to it someday.
One solution I've heard of is to take a bushing catalog where bushings are listed by size ( I believe NAPA has one, and possibly Flagg has one) and find a bushing that resembles the correct one and modify it to fit. Another is to bite the bullet and pay the price to someone who has invested the resources in creating the correct ones.
The bushings in the link that Anders needs never were sold separately, only the link with the bushings was available. I believe a good mechanic could figure a way to make an existing bushing work.
Carl

DKheld 05-11-2010 09:50 PM

Here are the thread links showing the suspension parts and one solution. Haven't posted thread links before so not sure it will work - if not just search on "bushings" and scroll through the finds - should be the ones named "58 rear suspension" and "58 rear bushing archived information"

http://www.squarebirds.org/vbulletin...bushing&page=2

http://www.squarebirds.org/vbulletin...hlight=bushing


Think I had read also but could not find it that someone had replaced their swing axles with a standard leaf spring setup - probably not an option overseas though.

Eric
registry 5347

Anders 05-12-2010 01:46 AM

You guys are the best! Thanks for your efforts so far! ( but you donīt give up yet eeeh?... ;) )
It soon seems to be a bargain to buy the ones from TBHQ for the 108 dollar / pair = 216 dollar set they want :o. It contains the bushings, nuts and bolts but not the arm. I donīt need the arm either.
Got one loose yesterday, and holy Toledo, there was only small sign of rubber left....

I have also checked with most vendors here in Sweden who is big on importing parts for American classic cars but they struggle big time. I still wait for answer from a guy who is specialized on Ford parts only, but itīs a one man company and he is ill at the moment, so I have to be patient here.
Itīs a bit strange realy, that this seems to be so unique as Ford is known for having Carry-over parts between models for almost everything, and that for years and years as well.:confused:

simplyconnected 05-12-2010 03:17 AM

Yeah, sometimes I can be dense. Sorry for my misunderstanding. I never thought of the trailing rear axle in the '58.

Rare Parts offers a kit that includes TWENTY parts! No wonder it's so expensive. I thought you needed a bushing or two.

I like Partsetal's take on this; if it were me, I would pursue Jed Zimmerman's letter from the fellow in Canada. He made his own bushings from correct urethane. I like the idea of pressing 20% oversize urethane into a cavity. Antifreeze makes a good assembly lubricant.

For you adventurous hobbyists, here's a site showing the dimensions of all the Rare Parts bushings:
http://www.freewebs.com/squarebird/parts.htm

Some of these parts were simply turned on a lathe. Others were cut off of longer parts. I can see the dimensions, but it would help to know the actual bolt diameters from the car. I don't see where all 20 parts need to be replaced. Someone has a line on bushing materials. - Dave

YellowRose 05-12-2010 03:29 AM

Upper Suspension ( control ) Arm Bushings, Rear
 
Anders, as you know by now, this subject of upper control arm bushings for the rear of the '58 has been kicked around a lot in the recent past. Dutchbird went through this with his '58 also. I think that either Rare Parts in California or Vintage T-Bird Sanctuary up in Oregon is the supplier of the kits to Bird Nest and others.

It is my understanding that you do not need the entire kit. Just the rear upper control arm bushings and no other parts. Correct me if I am wrong..

Now, I have found on one of the threads listed below that the '58 Ford Thunderbird Rear Suspension Kit from Rare Parts is their Part # RP18109 for the entire kit. In that kit, according to their own part listing, the Rear Upper Control Arm Bushings are Part # RP18098. I will call them tomorrow and see if they will just sell those bushings you need. They may not do it, but I can ask. I will let you know what they say. That Part # 17846 that I referenced below is just part of this RP18109 kit. That part(s) alone was $250.45!

Read those threads that Eric posted. Here is the thread that has the Part # for the kit and the Part # for the actual rear upper control arm bushings...

http://www.squarebirds.org/vbulletin...hlight=bushing

Coral 05-12-2010 11:06 AM

I did a quick look on the internet and the 'Birds are not alone in the bushing replacement field and seems to be quite an expense overall :eek: - however several people have gone and decided to make their own, here is one fella's wiki page on the subject:
http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/w...ubber_bushings

YellowRose 05-12-2010 01:42 PM

Upper Suspension ( control ) Arm Bushings, Rear
 
Anders, I just spoke with Alex at Rare Parts in California. 209-948-6005. alex@rareparts.com He just told me that the rear upper control arm bushings (Part # RP18098 or 18098) are available for $197.60. There are 8 pieces in this set he said. He also said that package contains parts to do both sides of the control arms, left and right.

He was unable to look at a break out of the parts. But here is that break out. If you go to this link and slide down, you will see the break out for Part # RP18109, the full kit. In that break out you will see RP18098, the bushings.

http://www.squarebirds.org/vbulletin...hlight=bushing

Last year, Frank58 provided this break out picture of the kit and the parts it consists of.

So here is another source for you to check out.

Anders 05-12-2010 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YellowRose (Post 44697)
Anders, I just spoke with Alex at Rare Parts in California. 209-948-6005. alex@rareparts.com He just told me that the rear upper control arm bushings (Part # RP18098 or 18098) are available for $197.60. There are 8 pieces in this set he said. He also said that package contains parts to do both sides of the control arms, left and right.

He was unable to look at a break out of the parts. But here is that break out. If you go to this link and slide down, you will see the break out for Part # RP18109, the full kit. In that break out you will see RP18098, the bushings.

http://www.squarebirds.org/vbulletin...hlight=bushing

Last year, Frank58 provided this break out picture of the kit and the parts it consists of.

So here is another source for you to check out.

Ray, Yes, Itīs the 18098 i`m looking for.
Pricewice, it seems as this set for $197.60 is similar to the one from Thunderbird Headquarter for $ 216.00 for booth sides.
But before I have it here with shipping and custom and tax ( tax even on shipping:mad: ) I might land on close to 300 hard work earned silver dollars before they are back on my car...:(

I need to look into making them out of urethane. I just wonder what " correct urethane" means.....:o

@ Cathie: I love to be able to my own bushings, but Iīm afraid itīs over my ability. But it sure looked fun :)

Anders 05-12-2010 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by simplyconnected (Post 44682)

For you adventurous hobbyists, here's a site showing the dimensions of all the Rare Parts bushings:
http://www.freewebs.com/squarebird/parts.htm

Sorry for highjacking my own tread, but this link catched my interest. I have so many time wondered what happend to this guy, and his ī58. Anyone who knows?:o

Coral 05-12-2010 03:23 PM

I took a look at their guest book, seems a few of us here have already scoped them out!
I have found an email and will contact them, inviting them here

Anders, its too bad you are in fast need of these bushings, with a bit of time my uncle and I will be able to offer bushings to be available. The process is not hard to learn...

YellowRose 05-12-2010 03:48 PM

Upper Suspension ( control ) Arm Bushings, Rear
 
I tried to find out the name of the guy who has the freewebs.com/squarebird/ website, but did not see anything about him. However, I did look at all the sub pages on the left. On the Parts page, I found the list and pix of parts he had there. If you click on pic #4, I think it is, you will find the Rare Parts package labeled 18098, and the white plastic bushings for the rear upper control arms... Plus several other metal parts. But it is right there for you to look at. So is that break out pic that is posed in that other thread I referenced.. I think the other parts shown make up all or part of that kit they and others sell. It would be good to know who this guy is!

http://www.freewebs.com/squarebird/parts.htm

Coral 05-12-2010 03:58 PM

I *think* the fella's name is Doug and the Mizzus is Lynn....
I have sent an email to an addy I found, inviting them here....waiting to hear back...

Anders 05-12-2010 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YellowRose (Post 44702)
It would be good to know who this guy is!

http://www.freewebs.com/squarebird/parts.htm

On "members page" this guy is called "Travlin", so he have been here before.
http://www.squarebirds.org/users/travlin/index.htm

I have also looked inte the parts he use ( 18098 ), but these are not near the original Ford product that came with the car as there are no rubber at all. I guess this might work for a while, but the ride will be quieter with rubber than with the hard plastic as they might perhaps make up for the gaps, they will most probably not damper any movement, so I feel a bit unsure about them. The homecooked rubberbushings seems like a better idea.
I have now found a place who do parts in rubber for industrial purpose, also in small quantity, and even if I doubt I can afford it, they are located less than 3 minutes from my house ( how about THAT :) ) so I need to visit them on monday ( as we have a long weekend here starting tomorrow) , and see what they might have in the scrapbox.....
To be continued!

YellowRose 05-12-2010 06:55 PM

Upper Suspension ( control ) Arm Bushings, Rear
 
Yes, this appears to be Travlin ~ JD, out of Florida. He owns or owned a '58. '59 & a '60 Squarebird. This pix on his web page that Anders posted of his '58 looks just like the one on his web pages. Travelin has not been on the site since around this time last, in 2007. He joined way back in 2004. I do have an email address for him, if it is still valid.

Richard D. Hord 05-12-2010 07:34 PM

Hey Guys,
Just talked to Sandra at Steele Rubber Products (www.steelerubber.com) 1-800-544-8665 She informed me that they have these bushings and any other rubber products for these old Thunderbirds! You need to call and ask for Trent Poole.
Richard D. Hord

Anders 05-12-2010 08:11 PM

We might getting there!!!:D

I just recieved a mail from Dave at TBHQ that confirmed that it was a urethane bushings, just like the one on Travlins "part page". ( You will come to his web by clicking on the picture on the link ). Now, Dave have his own restoration company as well www.adamsautoclassics.com. and said he was not realy happy with these bushings as he have used them himself on his ī58. Honest guy. Like him already!

Donīt know if I can describe on phone to Mr Poole, but I will anyhow have a look at there web. Itīs getting there. I can feel it!:)

Richard D. Hord 05-12-2010 08:29 PM

Hey Guys,
Ebay item number #370380001807
Richard D. Hord

Anders 05-12-2010 08:39 PM

Two minor problems with that item:
1: They donīt send outside USA.
2: The bushings I need is not in that package.......

I also looked at www.steelrubber.com but the only bushings for upper control arms is for front suspension. Not the rear :(


Bushing, control arm. Upper inner. Replaces factory #AJ-3068-A. Thunderbird. 2 required per side.
20-1276-32.....$ 16.00/ea.
Bushing, control arm. Replaces factory #B4A-3069. 2 required per side.
1954-56: Ford only;
1955-59: Thunderbird.
20-1279-32.....$ 10.50/ea.

I was upbeat there for a second....:o

YellowRose 05-12-2010 08:39 PM

Upper Suspension ( control ) Arm Bushings, Rear
 
Keep in mind that eBay kit seems to be for the FRONT ends only. No mention is made of it working on the '58 rear ends.

Also, JohnG is gonna grab this thread and put it in the Technical Resource Library (TRL) for use by '58 owners who need this information in the future...:p

Coral 05-12-2010 09:47 PM

Since this is a hot spot right now I just want to let folks out side of the USA there are folks here that will happily accept delivery and forward onto you where-ever you are at incase its ever needed, just let us know!

YellowRose 05-12-2010 10:43 PM

Upper Suspension ( control ) Arm Bushings, Rear
 
Hear, Hear!! I second that!! Way to go, Cathie! You betcha!:D

Anders 05-13-2010 08:46 AM

Murphys law :mad:
Itīs something with Rear Upper Control Arm on a ī58. No wonder it was a one year solution.
After removing one of these arms, I was in a good mood to loose the other. First bolts on the rear axle vent like a charm. But the front one on the left side of the car kind of never came out, even if the bolt rotated....
It seems as the bolt on the inside have either got loose from itīs weld or something similar. Nevertheless it spins around. That wouldnīt be much of a problem if it wasnīt for that itīs inside the supportframe and the cup / bowl that holds the spring. Itīs not possible to reach it ( or even see it ) less than cut up the cup /bowl, loosen the nut before veld it back and then veld the cup / bowl again.....:eek: Thatīs what I call a bad design.
I got 2 options here. One is to find new bushings and only change 3 of them...I mean, I have driven without any of them since I bought the car as I didnīt find the reason for the "klonk-sound" until a few weeks ago. The other would be to take down the whole rear axle, springs and everything and start cutting up the car in the hunt for the bolt. As I was planning to take out the engine, transmission and the rear axle after the summer for a long winter project, in order to change gaskets and stuff to avoid as much leakage as possible, and clean up the engine bay, there might be an idea to cancell this season already now and do the job properly. I hate quick-fix, so I usually go the "do-it-right" way, but I was looking forward to drive this summer as well....
Iīm depressed.:(

tbirds8 05-13-2010 07:28 PM

Now Now Anders Don't be talkin like That! I say there has to be a bushing out there for something that can be made to fit. Weather it be extra washers or grind it down or another bolt. But you are going to have to take it all apart. As you said it was a one year wonder (for air bags) aint you glad there not there.............................Later Bill

Richard D. Hord 05-13-2010 07:36 PM

Hey Andres,
Can you show us exactly what part you are looking for? As said before there has to be a way to fix (or make) something that will work! In my home improvement business and working on old cars, I have never left anything undone. Where there is a will there is a way! There is alway a solution!!!
Richard D. Hord

Richard D. Hord 05-13-2010 09:42 PM

Hey Andres,
Contact partsetal, see if he has, can get or knows where to get what you need! You can send him a Private Message (PM) or email him.


Richard D. Hord

DKheld 05-13-2010 11:40 PM

Anders - Ugh - that is some bad luck - we are related in some way I can assure you.

Can the frame be drilled with a hole just big enough on the opposite side to get a socket in that area and loosen the nut? Fill it with a rubber grommet until you have a chance to weld in a permanent bolt and seal the hole this winter ????

Another idea - drill about 5 small holes in the frame very close to and toward the nut. Then when the frame metal is drilled away the drill bit will hit the nut and it will be visible. Fill the holes by welding and at the same time it will reattach the nut to the frame???

On the poly bushings you had mentioned. My MG had rubber bushings on the front A-arms and I replaced them when they became warn with poly bushings. Although the suspension on an MG is already stiff I couldn't tell the difference in ride but the handling was greatly improved - don't count those poly bushings out.

Which got me thinking - with all the car guys out there with different cars maybe we can find something from a totally different car that will work. The poly bushings for an MGB front A-arm might be the same as the Tbird bushings in size but cheaper? Ebay items 250367037297 , 360089152328 Maybe one of these sellers would be nice enough to send you the dimensions to see if they are close.

These are the idler arm bushings in the steering for a '60 - are they even close so that you could use them in place of the RP18098 bushings for the links? I'll open the bag and get more precise measurements if they look close enough. I have the '60 so don't know the dimensions of those 18098 bushings on the '58 but I knew I had something that looked similar so dug through my parts boxes until I found them.

Hopefully it will be an exact match and you can drive this summer.

Eric
registry 5347




tbird430 05-14-2010 11:31 AM

AND. Another completely different option would be to weld in the perches for 1959-60 rear leaf springs!! I think we all know were I'm going with this ideal. :cool:

It's been done before...

Anders 05-14-2010 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tbird430 (Post 44786)
AND. Another completely different option would be to weld in the perches for 1959-60 rear leaf springs!! I think we all know were I'm going with this ideal. :cool:

It's been done before...

What is "perches"? Canīt find it in my dictionary.

Today I cut up a hole in the Cup/bowl that holds the spring in order to reach the nut.
You know how drill machines can hook up and rotate if they suddenly grab anything, and it sure did here as well. Twice. Unfortunally the space is V E R Y limited as the rear axle , springs and everything is still there, so my position and the way I could hold the machine was a bit odd. First time it grabbed and rotated, I got a smack from it on my left eye that even Mike Tyson would be proud to deliver. Back again after half an hour, feeling quite sorry for myself, I tryed a new grip, only to smash my thumb. It was half the thickness for a minute, but since then, its twice the normal size. And my eye is black, purple and yellow. DeWalt sure sell strong battery powered machines.
Stuff like that donīt stop us right? ;) Third time lucky!
Next thing was to find the right tool to grab the bolt. The biggest I have is a 7/8 and it was to small so I bought a 1" wrench. In order to get it in perfectly I needed to cut it and veld it in a different angle. That was all good except it was now to big :confused:
Tomorrow I will buy a 24mm ( as there is quite difficult to find all inch tools here, specially on a Saturday... ) and do it again, and hopefully that will fit, as I donīt want to cut my original tools.
How I ever will be able to veld the bolt in there I have no idea about. But thatīs not todays problems. That question is still a few days away ;)
Iīm done for tonight. Feel like I deserve a big Whisky as a matter of fact. :)
To be continued...

simplyconnected 05-14-2010 08:39 PM

Anders,
If you are using a battery powered drill, set the clutch on the front so it will 'slip' if the drill bit snags. At least the drill motor will cut loose.

If you are using a drill press, rest the piece against the LEFT side of the post (it's in the rear of the drill press). That way, the part cannot bash you in the eye or take you for a ride.

Perch... someting a bird 'sits' on... several birds are resting on their perches. Springs rest in perches, too.

"Whisky"... nectar of the gods for recreational enjoyment, but in your case, it is VERY effective (and necessary) as a pain killer; a medicinal elixir. - Dave

Coral 05-14-2010 09:06 PM

DAVE!
:eek:
:D

scumdog 05-15-2010 12:37 AM

Uses of whisky...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Coral (Post 44804)
DAVE!
:eek:
:D

Well...he's right!!

Coral 05-15-2010 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scumdog (Post 44810)
Well...he's right!!

;) I know, just that I was reading along, and it was informative and serious, then he caught me off-guard with his sparkling humor.... :D


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