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-   1958 To 1960 Squarebirds - General Technical Discussion (http://squarebirds.org/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=14)
-   -   1960 convertible top issues (http://squarebirds.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=20554)

simplyconnected 05-30-2016 08:57 PM

Ford needed two more contacts so they added two more (doubled-up) single pole relays. Later, they eliminated the two single pole and substituted two double pole relays. Looking at the relay logic, it's exactly the same. - Dave

shoebox 05-31-2016 10:22 AM

Convertible top issues
 
First let me state what a great forum this is. I'm really grateful for all the responses received my problem.

Over the weekend a friend of mine who is an electrical engineer for GM agreed to do a logic report on the two schematics I have. It appears that the problem stems from the switch from a 10 relay system to a 12 relay system. Unfortunately I do not have my original (the harness that was on the car) harness as it was sent to Bauer Electronics (outsource for Concourse Parts) to copy.

At the outset it appears that the difficulty centers on the deck solenoid relay. The first harness provided (with the bullet connectors for the added to relays) at three wires, blue (306), yellow violent (413) and black/green (414). The second harness had three wires, two 413 and one 306.

I hope to have the logic report next several days and will post the results.

partsetal 05-31-2016 02:33 PM

In the meantime order those two B9SF relays.
Carl

simplyconnected 06-01-2016 01:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoebox (Post 101345)
I have a june 1960 with a 12 relay setup. There are 10 2-prong relays and 2- 3 prong. All relays have been tested as well as the 3- solenoids...

Quote:

Originally Posted by partsetal (Post 101398)
In the meantime order those two B9SF relays.
Carl

If your relays have been tested and coils and contacts prove to be good, I would NOT order parts until you find a defective part. The notion that someone else's problem sounds similar falls under, 'last time it was...' which may not be your problem so avoid this type of troubleshooting.

I'm glad you have a friend who can give you the sequence of operation. Use this diagram: CLICK HERE Maybe he can answer questions you may have regarding the diagram and how to read it.

I'm also an electrical controls engineer, not "for Ford" but employed by and now pensioned FROM Ford Motor Co, (staff) Dearborn, MI. I design relay logic and many other types of controls. If your GM man has questions I invite him to call me (248-544-8834).

If you have a harness with bullet connectors, whether from a 10 or 12-relay system, I can make it work on your 12-relay setup. Remember, Ford eliminated the number of relays by using ones with more contacts. The functions are the same.

Look at your diagram and notice that these relay coils are paralleled:
  • 413 energizes Deck Open Relay coil and Deck Solenoid Relay coil
  • 414 energizes Deck Close Relay coil and Deck Valve Solenoid Relay coil.
  • 422 energizes, Roof Up Relay coil and Roof Solenoid Relay coil.
  • 406 energizes, Roof Down Relay coil and Top Valve Solenoid Relay coil.
So for example, let's say you have a harness for a 10-relay setup and you are wiring 413 coil. You would simply add a jumper from the Deck Open Relay coil to the Deck Solenoid Relay coil.

NONE of the limit switches or harness wires carry a ground wire (so short circuits are rare) and all relay contacts are N.O. This makes troubleshooting very easy and straight forward. - Dave

shoebox 06-13-2016 12:04 PM

Convertible top issues
 
Success. After working with two separate wiring harnesses I finally have my top working as it should. I don't know if anyone else has had similar issues but I thought I would go through the history in the hopes that it may shortcut someone else's problems.

Initially my 1960 convertible had a 12 relay system- 10 two terminal relays and two 3 terminal in line relays. The original harness on the car did not have bullet connectors and was wired to accept the relay system. However the plugs were all corroded so I ordered a new harness from Concourse. The new harness had two plugs ( 3 terminal, in line) connected by bullet connectors. I could not get this harness to work with my system. At the suggestion of Bauer Electronics,(the company that made the harness for Concourse) I sent my original harness in to be copied. I maintained notes as to the color of wires for each plug before mailing my original harness to Bauer. The deck closed relay on the original harness had a blue, green/black, and yellow/violent wire. The so-called copy returned to me eliminated the green and black and substituted a yellow/Violet wire. This harness did not work either.

Given a suggestion from a member of this forum I replaced two of the relays with a three terminal (B9SF) relay. The system then had 8 two terminal relays, two 3 terminal (B9 SF) and two three terminal in line relays. I then reinstalled the first wiring harness with the bullet connectors and the system finally began to work. So it appears that there are three different types of relays that must be used in the 12 relay system to accommodate the wiring harness sold as a replacement.
Thanks to everyone who contributed to the resolution of my electrical woes. Hopefully this post may save someone a lot of headaches with the 60 top system.

shoebox 06-13-2016 12:06 PM

Convertible top issues
 
Success.
After working with two separate wiring harnesses I finally have my top working as it should. I don't know if anyone else has had similar issues but I thought I would go through the history in the hopes that it may shortcut someone else's problems.

Initially my 1960 convertible had a 12 relay system- 10 two terminal relays and two 3 terminal in line relays. The original harness on the car did not have bullet connectors and was wired to accept the relay system. However the plugs were all corroded so I ordered a new harness from Concourse. The new harness had two plugs ( 3 terminal, in line) connected by bullet connectors. I could not get this harness to work with my system. At the suggestion of Bauer Electronics,(the company that made the harness for Concourse) I sent my original harness in to be copied. I maintained notes as to the color of wires for each plug before mailing my original harness to Bauer. The deck closed relay on the original harness had a blue, green/black, and yellow/violent wire. The so-called copy returned to me eliminated the green and black and substituted a yellow/Violet wire. This harness did not work either.

Given a suggestion from a member of this forum I replaced two of the relays with a three terminal (B9SF) relay. The system then had 8 two terminal relays, two 3 terminal (B9 SF) and two three terminal in line relays. I then reinstalled the first wiring harness with the bullet connectors and the system finally began to work. So it appears that there are three different types of relays that must be used in the 12 relay system to accommodate the wiring harness sold as a replacement.

Thanks to everyone who contributed to the resolution of my electrical woes. Hopefully this post may save someone a lot of headaches with the 60 top system.

jopizz 06-13-2016 12:26 PM

I'm glad to hear that it is working. That was Carl Heller's recommendation to replace the two relays. Carl has probably worked on more squarebird convertibles than anyone I know. We are fortunate to have his expertise on this forum.

John

simplyconnected 06-13-2016 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoebox (Post 101695)
Success.
...Given a suggestion from a member of this forum I replaced two of the relays with a three terminal (B9SF) relay...

What did you do with the relays you removed? I'm very glad your top is working again but it also lightened your wallet by over a hundred bucks to replace relays that were still ok. 'just say'n. - Dave


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