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-   1958 To 1960 Squarebirds - General Technical Discussion (http://squarebirds.org/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=14)
-   -   problem with replacement window rollers (http://squarebirds.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=18883)

kimmc 05-18-2015 03:19 AM

problem with replacement window rollers
 
5 Attachment(s)
Last month I installed new window glass, weatherstripping, and all-metal rollers in our '59 convertible (see Donna's '59 resto-mod convertible). Yesterday I hooked up the window motors to check for smooth operation. Three out of 4 worked fine but the passenger side quarter window stuck after briefly starting down. It turned out that the cupped washer that slides along the track had been pushed through to the opposite side and the roller spring was causing the mechanism to bind. I figured there were a couple of possible causes; either the track had wide spot or maybe the cupped washer was of improper diameter. I removed the window today. The track was OK however the cupped washer looked to be the problem. While it was only fractionally smaller than the diameter of the track-riding part of the roller, the after-market cupped washer was considerably narrower and much less "deep-dished" than the OEM cupped washer. Each of the cupped washers on the new rollers was similar to the one pictured. I am salvaging as many of the old OEM cupped washers as possible and will put those on the replacement rollers, especially for the quarter windows. Pictures attached (the close-ups are a little out of focus...sorry).

#2 roller with cupped washer pushed to other side of window track and binding on spring
#3 roller with cupped washer in correct position and spring compressed
#5 concave side; new washer on left, OEM washer on right
#6 convex side; same arrangement as before
#7 convex side, lower picture angle; differences between new washer on L and OEM washer on R are clear; notice wear mark on old washer with plenty of width left to remain on the track.

kimmc 05-18-2015 04:39 PM

problem with replacement window rollers
 
5 Attachment(s)
This morning I got busy on my quarter window problem. I reinforced the rail as Nyles had done. For rail reinforcement I used 1/2 inch leg steel angle then drilled and tapped holes in the window frame for 10-24 machine screws. The exposed leg is on the outside of the frame as there is no clearance problem there. Also, I replaced the cupped washers on the new replacement rollers with the cupped washers salvaged from old rollers. Check out the picture of the new roller with the old cupped washer on it (on right) with the new roller and its cupped washer (on the left). It looks pretty clear to me that the modified roller will slide better on the rail. After some lunch I will re-install the window. Hope all goes well. Will let you know. I've attached pictures of the project.

partsetal 05-18-2015 09:34 PM

Were the rollers with the smaller cupped washers the steel ones offered by some of the small bird and squarebird parts vendors? I believe they sell in the neighborhood of 8.00 each. I was about to try some of them, but have been holding off.
Carl

kimmc 05-18-2015 09:41 PM

problem with replacement window rollers
 
Update: The quarter window is back in and working well. It travels up and down smoothly and the motor doesn't sound like it is straining. Fiddled with window adjustment but final touches will wait until the new top goes on next winter. If any of you ever remove old rollers don't throw away the cupped washer if it is useable. It may be a better piece than the one that comes with replacement window rollers. I'm saving mine in case I have a similar problem on another window.

Tbird1044 05-19-2015 12:26 AM

Carl:
If my buddy John comes through, he will making a run of the "brass" rollers. These rollers would still need to use the original bevel washers. He is planning on making a run of 500-1000 rollers. He has the program set up for the CNC so now needs to get the materials and do the run.
I keep after him as I want to use these rollers when I install my windows.
Nyles

Anders 05-19-2015 03:26 AM

Ray, Can you please do a link to this or save this thread in the Technical Resource Library? I need to find this great ideas within a year or so ;)

Great job Jim!!

YellowRose 05-19-2015 04:35 AM

problem with replacement window rollers
 
Done, Anders. I added it to the Window section in the TRL..

Joe Johnston 05-19-2015 10:50 AM

I had this same issue with my 57 and used salvaged washers as well. Has anyone investigated using a flat washer, or a punch out from an electrician's punch

Post is edited. Just looked at Amazon and a punch like I was thinking of won't work because the ID will probably be too big as these punches require a draw bar to pull the dies together.

Any one have a heavy duty shim stock or sheet metal punch to experiment with?

kimmc 05-19-2015 01:15 PM

problem with replacement window rollers
 
Note to thread: the rollers were from Casco I and about $8.50 each. I have not looked at rollers from other vendors to see if they have the same skimpy cupped washer. In my opinion, rollers with these washers are a potential problem. The Casco roller is a good piece (better than the OEM rollers in my opinion) as are the spring, flat washer, and hairpin. It's just the cupped washer that is a poor copy.

Ray: if you could determine who manufactures the rollers and make them aware of the issue, they could produce a correct cupped washer. Kim

YellowRose 05-19-2015 02:42 PM

problem with replacement window rollers
 
Kimm, and all, you will be pleased to know that I contacted Casco to see who makes their all metal window rollers. It turns out that they do, as they make many other parts for our Tbirds. These rollers are not only used on Little Birds, Squarebirds, but also on the big Fords back then. Don, at the Bird Nest just told me that in '61, I think he said, or somewhere in the Bulletbird production, Ford switched to plastic rollers because they found that the metal rollers rolling in a metal window frame was causing metal on metal wear.

Casco asked me to send them pix of the OEM roller, which I will, and information regarding the problem ya'll are experiencing with their roller assembly. She said they have not heard that the cupped washer is not manufactured the same as the OEM version. I told her that what some of ya'll have had to do is to re-use the OEM cupped washer instead of theirs. They want to look into this and see if they can fix this. IF it turns out that they need to see an OEM cupped washer, what I would like someone to do, IF you can spare ONE OEM cupped roller washer, is to send one them. IF they need one to examine. They will let me know if they do not have any available and want one to examine. Kim confirmed in his post it was CASCO that he ordered them from. Joe's roller parts came with the car when he bought it.

I have checked the websites of ALL the major Tbird parts houses. The ONLY one I can find that manufactures and sells the metal window roller assembly is CASCO. All the rest who market them, market the plastic ones. That part # is 23240, whether in metal or plastic. I will let ya'll know what I hear back from CASCO.

Anders 05-20-2015 05:41 PM

Thanks Ray. And even more, all who contributed to this thread :) I am thinking of let a skilled metalman make me accurate copies of the original in stainless steel. Anyone who have any information about those rollers made in brass I read about a year or three back? Are they still avalible?

simplyconnected 05-20-2015 07:00 PM

Why not simply re-use the old washers? They are already the right size, made of stainless and I have never seen one wear out. New ones will be the same as the old ones.

partsetal 05-20-2015 08:22 PM

I've never come across ones that were stainless. The problem with many of the tapered washers is that they get bent while in operation and will not give smooth window operation. I imagine a set of dies could be made to straighten them.
Carl

simplyconnected 05-21-2015 11:19 AM

Wow Carl, you're right. After reviewing my pictures, I do see rust on those OEM washers. It's the other side that is made of SS. - Dave

YellowRose 05-21-2015 11:55 AM

problem with replacement window rollers
 
Even if there is rust on those cupped washers, they can be cleaned up, and used again unless they are bent, have bad wear or just not usable. Hopefully, CASCO will opt to fix the configuration of their cupped washers in their metal window roller assemblies. I will let you know what they say when I hear from them. As for the plastic ones that most everyone sells, I have no idea if they have the same problem with that cupped washer. If anyone has used the plastic version, it would be nice to know. I gather from past posts that those who have used the plastic ones have had some problems with them also regarding wear. It is interesting though, that Ford decided to go the plastic roller route in the Bulletbirds and big Fords after they started getting complaints, I gather, regarding the wearing of the metal rollers...

Tbird1044 05-21-2015 04:00 PM

I did some checking on all of the rollers that I have. Here is what I found:
1. Both the cupped washer and roller body are magnetic indicating a high steel content. Low grade s.s. is magnetic. Since the rust is pretty superficial, I would guess that they are a low grade s.s.
2. I ordered some of the plastic rollers, mainly for the cupped washer and spring. When I used a vernier caliper to check dimensions, I found that the original appeared to be 22 gauge and the new ones 23 gauge. It's only about .003" difference and the measurements were close with a + - tolerance within limits.
3. I also checked the OD and ID of the washers and they were all within a reasonable tolerance.
I was going to order some of the Casco rollers, but have been holding off to see if I can get the brass rollers. The 2 different rollers that I have, appear to be the original Ford or new plastic from Ebay, so it will interesting to see what Casco comes up with. It should be an easy check for them to make.
Nyles

simplyconnected 05-21-2015 04:42 PM

Ray, Ford wasn't the only company that used these rollers. Everyone did, including Chevrolet. Of course they were used across all Ford car and truck lines, how many different rollers do we need? Because of the high volume, it is much cheaper to mold them from plastic than machining them from round stock or pressing them from powdered metal. Ford bought these stamped parts from Mattatuck in Waterbury, Connecticut.

Martin Burs and I did a writeup on these rollers because he made some from brass. I thought he would churn out many more but instead, he was laid off (so he went sailing). That was a couple years ago.

I'm sure that Martin doesn't mind if I share what we know and his experience making them in this Squarebirds.org site:
CLICK HERE

The thickness of the cupped washers cannot be too thick because a spring backs it up. Just make sure the height is at least as tall as the spool's major diameter.

BTW, cupped washers are easy to make from SS washers available from all the major hardware stores. - Dave

YellowRose 06-12-2015 12:43 PM

problem with replacement window rollers
 
I am pleased to tell you that Jim Brown, President of CASCO, has just said in an email to me, that they will fix that problem with that metal cupped washer that comes as part of their 23240M all metal roller that they manufacture. IF they need an actual OEM cupped metal washer to replicate it, I will let you know. If so, someone might have to "loan" or give them one to examine and replicate. Here is what Jim had to say, and I post this with his expressed permission.

Ray,

I received your information about our 23240M all metal roller we manufacture. Thank you for taking the time to investigate the problem and for passing the information on to CASCO and the TBird community. We have made that part for several years now and have not heard of that problem before. We actually only manufacture the solid metal part of that assembly. We use the cupped washer, spring and hair pin from a readily available plastic window roller and toss out the plastic part. But it looks like we should be making our own version of the cupped washer too. I am sorry you had an issue with our roller. Thanks again for helping to make our parts the best they can be.

Sincerely,

Jim Brown, President, CASCO

In response, I thanked him for his company's support of the Thunderbird and for their manufacturing of many parts still needed today by the large Thunderbird community around the world.

YellowRose 06-12-2015 03:49 PM

problem with replacement window rollers
 
Jim Brown, President of CASCO has just advised me that they do not need anyone to send them a sample of the OEM metal cupped washer. He said they have original parts they can reference.


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