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-   1961 To 1963 Bulletbirds, Rocketbirds - General Technical Discussion (http://squarebirds.org/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=24)
-   -   Maiden Voyage of my 61T - Oh No!!!! (http://squarebirds.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=14780)

Griffin 03-24-2013 08:11 PM

Maiden Voyage of my 61T - Oh No!!!!
 
Hi all

Well, I took the car to the New South Wales Thunderbird National Titles on the weekend. It was about 200 miles each way. It was a great weekend and I'll post some photos in the Anything Goes forum.

Before I left the car had a couple of issues that needed to be sorted. There was a light knocking noise at idle that the mechanic thought was a stuck lifter. He suggested adding some lifter clear to the oil and taking the car for a run. There was also a slight leak from the power steering box. The box looked like it had been rebuilt recently and again I was advised to put an additive in to bring the seals back to life.

Anyway, the car went very well. However, some of the TBird guru mechanics had a listen to the engine noise. It only becomes apparent when the motor is hot and it tends to fade in and out. It can be quite loud although you don't hear it when driving or when the engine is revved. So after much listening with long screwdrivers (no one had a stethoscope) the noise appears to be emanating from the timing chain area. Another mechanic said it also could be a gudgeon pin (wrist pin) - hopefully not.

When we arrived back home, again no problems on the road, the noise was still apparent. I left the motor idling for 5 minutes while I raised the deck lid to get things out of the boot (trunk) and when I moved the car there was a pool of engine oil about 8 inches across underneath. I also checked the power steering reservoir and the dip stick was dry (it was at the correct level when we left). The motor was not leaking oil before the trip.

To be honest, I'm a bit at a loss about this car. The initial problems turned out to be minor issues but this is different.

Mark

ozbird 03-24-2013 11:48 PM

Hi Mark,

bit of a bummer but not the end the world, I am up to my 3rd engine build!

First, the power steering pump, if you had a leak it would have sprayed a very fine mist over the engine bay..all of it! I know, have been there too. Got my pump fixed with 1 year warranty for $200, not cheap but worth ith.

the oil leak, well it may not be anything too bad, a leak that large would be obvious to locate. Could be a blown oil filter seal even.

Just a few little bugs to iron out, it will be fine in the end

Graeme

KULTULZ 03-25-2013 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Griffin (Post 73554)

There was a light knocking noise at idle that the mechanic thought was a stuck lifter. He suggested adding some lifter clear to the oil and taking the car for a run. There was also a slight leak from the power steering box. The box looked like it had been rebuilt recently and again I was advised to put an additive in to bring the seals back to life.

Anyway, the car went very well. However, some of the TBird guru mechanics had a listen to the engine noise. It only becomes apparent when the motor is hot and it tends to fade in and out. It can be quite loud although you don't hear it when driving or when the engine is revved. So after much listening with long screwdrivers (no one had a stethoscope) the noise appears to be emanating from the timing chain area.

Another mechanic said it also could be a gudgeon pin (wrist pin) - hopefully not.

Mark

To determine if it is a pin, piston slap or possible loose bearing, simply remove that spark plug lead while idling. If the noise lessens or disappears, it is within that cylinder.

For a weak/defective tappet, remove the rocker cover and put your finger on the valve retainer(s) one at a time. If you feel roughness or clacking, you have found the bad lifter/rocker or bad adjustment.

Griffin 03-26-2013 05:05 AM

Thanks for that advice Kultulz. I'm very interested to chase the cause of the noise and leak. I'll keep you informed.

Mark

simplyconnected 03-26-2013 06:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Griffin (Post 72788)
Hi all

Just a follow up. The mechanic went over the car and found a few minor oil leaks which only required a plug etc being tightened up. There is a minor oil leak from the power steering box but as it looks like it has recently been rebuilt he suggested putting an additive in to rejuvenate the seal.

The motor is quiet until it's been running for about 30 minutes and then the lifter noise becomes apparent. He suggested using an additive to free up the lifter and drive the car for a while to see if that does the trick. If not he will replace the lifter.

These problems are the result of the car not being used enough. At last some positive news and light at the end of the tunnel! I want to take the car to the Thunderbird State Titles here in late March and that requires a 3-4 hour drive so the car needs to be sorted by then.

Thanks everyone and particularly Dave for your sound advice.

Cheers
Mark

Quote:

Originally Posted by Griffin (Post 73554)
Hi all

Well, I took the car to the New South Wales Thunderbird National Titles on the weekend. It was about 200 miles each way. It was a great weekend and I'll post some photos in the Anything Goes forum.

Before I left the car had a couple of issues that needed to be sorted. There was a light knocking noise at idle that the mechanic thought was a stuck lifter. He suggested adding some lifter clear to the oil and taking the car for a run. There was also a slight leak from the power steering box. The box looked like it had been rebuilt recently and again I was advised to put an additive in to bring the seals back to life.

Anyway, the car went very well. However, some of the TBird guru mechanics had a listen to the engine noise. It only becomes apparent when the motor is hot and it tends to fade in and out. It can be quite loud although you don't hear it when driving or when the engine is revved. So after much listening with long screwdrivers (no one had a stethoscope) the noise appears to be emanating from the timing chain area. Another mechanic said it also could be a gudgeon pin (wrist pin) - hopefully not.

When we arrived back home, again no problems on the road, the noise was still apparent. I left the motor idling for 5 minutes while I raised the deck lid to get things out of the boot (trunk) and when I moved the car there was a pool of engine oil about 8 inches across underneath. I also checked the power steering reservoir and the dip stick was dry (it was at the correct level when we left). The motor was not leaking oil before the trip.

To be honest, I'm a bit at a loss about this car. The initial problems turned out to be minor issues but this is different.

Mark

So, this is a continuation of the original problem. It is getting worse instead of better.
The only suggestion I have for the Power Steering is to have it rebuilt. It's not one of the easiest or cheapest fixes but it can be done by the right folks.

As for the knock, if it comes and goes, I would imagine something is starved for oil at times, then it's not. A starved gudgeon would cause the piston to slap or clack.

Your timing cover only houses a chain and your fuel pump lever. Pull the fuel pump out and look at the arm for scoring.

I would suggest taking the valve covers off, one at a time, & inspect your rocker arms, the rocker shaft (by pushing each rocker arm to the side) and the pushrods. Observe the oil holes in each rocker arm for flow. Then, shut the engine off and use a mirror to look at the bottom of the rocker shaft as you push each rocker arm out of the way. Is there galling? Do the arms slide freely (except for the end ones that you can't push)? Rotate the pushrods and check for straightness.

Take loads of pictures so we can see what's up. Any idea where the motor oil is leaking from? Is it from the rear seal? Let us know. Oh, and screw a mechanical oil pressure gauge into the block. I'd like to know what you're getting across the rpm range. - Dave

Griffin 04-10-2013 10:46 PM

Hi all. Here's an update.

It's taken my a while to find a mechanic I trust and I took the car down on Monday. The mechanic organised another mechanic who is an engine builder to also come and listen to the noise. He seemed to know his stuff and went over the engine for about 15 minutes with an electronic stethoscope. He said the the knock appeared to be coming from the centre of the engine at the bottom.

He also noticed that the dip stick tube had been pushed about 10mm out of the block. I thought the oil level was low but it seems that the motor may have the wrong dipstick. The motor is very fumy considering it is a rebuild.

Anyway, he pulled the pan off the bottom of the motor and here is what he found:

The motor has been rebuilt with everything clean and tight
Crank end float and side float are good
Checked that the torque converter was not loading the crank
There was no problem with the thrust caps
The was no bearing metal in the pan
One side of the thrust bearing was worn a bit differently from the other but this would not make the noise

He changed the oil filter and put in fresh running-in oil as the motor hasn't done many miles.

The knock is evident at idle when the motor gets to operating temperature but not when the revs are increased.

He will check the oil pressure and valve clearances next. If these are OK he recommended putting in straight 50 grade oil, bumping up the idling speed and putting another 500 miles of non-highway driving on the car to see if anything changes.

So far, we know what the noise isn't. The saga continues...

Mark

simplyconnected 04-11-2013 03:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Griffin (Post 74097)
...The motor has been rebuilt with everything clean and tight...
...he recommended putting in straight 50 grade oil...

I would RUN away from that guy, mate. This engine is not an air-cooled Harley-Davidson. It's a newly rebuilt water-cooled engine. 50W is NOT any kind of oil I would use on a new car.

You may try Shell Rotella-T 15W-40 just for the zinc and phosphorous it contains for your flat tappets and cam.

Did your man pull the valve covers off and inspect the pushrods? Did he watch the rocker arms go all the way up and down? At idle, when the noise is at its worst, push on the rocker arms, one at a time, using a rag for a palm cushion. You may discover a bent or loose pushrod. - Dave

Griffin 04-11-2013 04:13 AM

Dave

I take your point. He said he would pull the valve covers off to check to push rods and rockers this afternoon. He will also check the oil pressure. I'm still waiting to hear back. I'm going over there in the morning tomorrow to see what is happening.

Mark

KULTULZ 04-11-2013 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by simplyconnected (Post 74102)

I would RUN away from that guy, mate. This engine is not an air-cooled Harley-Davidson. It's a newly rebuilt water-cooled engine. 50W is NOT any kind of oil I would use on a new car.

:eek:

I second that recommendation....

Have they performed an oil pressure check, hot and cold?

KULTULZ 04-11-2013 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Griffin (Post 74097)

Hi all. Here's an update.

It's taken my a while to find a mechanic I trust and I took the car down on Monday. The mechanic organised another mechanic who is an engine builder to also come and listen to the noise. He seemed to know his stuff and went over the engine for about 15 minutes with an electronic stethoscope. He said the the knock appeared to be coming from the centre of the engine at the bottom.

He also noticed that the dip stick tube had been pushed about 10mm out of the block. I thought the oil level was low but it seems that the motor may have the wrong dipstick. The motor is very fumy considering it is a rebuild.

Anyway, he pulled the pan off the bottom of the motor and here is what he found:

1) Crank end float and side float are good.

2) Checked that the torque converter was not loading the crank

3) There was no problem with the thrust caps

4) One side of the thrust bearing was worn a bit differently from the other but this would not make the noise

5) The knock is evident at idle when the motor gets to operating temperature but not when the revs are increased.

He will check the oil pressure and valve clearances next. If these are OK he recommended putting in straight 50 grade oil, bumping up the idling speed and putting another 500 miles of non-highway driving on the car to see if anything changes.

So far, we know what the noise isn't. The saga continues...

Mark

He checked crank end play, correct? Did he use a gauge to measure movement (against specs)? The thrust bearing face (one side) may indicate the problem.

The first thing that should have been done is a comprehensive cold and hot oil pressure check.

It may be than the thrust bearing(s) is bad allowing the crankshaft to move (forward/backwards) on acceleration and/or hard braking.

*******************************************

ADDENDUM-

Quote:

Originally Posted by Griffin (Post 73554)

When we arrived back home, again no problems on the road, the noise was still apparent. I left the motor idling for 5 minutes while I raised the deck lid to get things out of the boot (trunk) and when I moved the car there was a pool of engine oil about 8 inches across underneath. I also checked the power steering reservoir and the dip stick was dry (it was at the correct level when we left). The motor was not leaking oil before the trip.

To be honest, I'm a bit at a loss about this car. The initial problems turned out to be minor issues but this is different.

Mark

Was the engine oil leak detected/diagnosed before they dropped the oil pan?

Is it still leaking after the oil pan removal/re-install?

Is the crankcase ventilation system (road draft) operating correctly? There is a PCV upgrade described here within the Technical Pages.


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