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-   1958 To 1960 Squarebirds - General Technical Discussion (http://squarebirds.org/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=14)
-   -   More on the 430 T-Bird's Vacuum Check Valve (http://squarebirds.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=1172)

JBird 09-29-2006 05:03 PM

More on the 430 T-Bird's Vacuum Check Valve
 
Unbelievable!

What are we looking at?

Two styles of 430 Lincoln check valve tubes used to run vacuum from the internal vacuum pump which piggyback’s on the internal oil pump and supplements the wiper motor with vacuum.

The Check valves are both the same. One is a brass 90 and corroded check valve and a broken tube that rusted into two pieces. The second tube that resembles it is a tube I made to copy it. See the photo of an actual line in place on a 430 photo below mounted on a 430.


http://www.rhyner.com/59jbird/photos/CHECKVALVE4.JPG
http://www.rhyner.com/59jbird/photos/CHECKVALVE5.JPG

TOP and MIDDLE lines in the photo of all 3 lines I will call TYPE 1

http://www.rhyner.com/59jbird/photos/CHECKVALVE1.JPG

I just bought a tube and working check valve in Canada and was shocked to see it is completely different from two other tubes I have seen.

http://www.rhyner.com/59jbird/photos/CHECKVALVE2.JPG

The second tube in not only smaller in diameter, it is longer. The tube connects to the same bolt on the bell housing however it is NOT INTENDED TO BE USED WITH THE BRASS 90 DEGREE FITTING. Note the check valves are mounted 90 degrees differently. The only documentation I have found for this check valve in my 1959 THUNDERBIRD SERVICE MANUAL is located on page 1-52 Figure 8 which shows what appears to be the check valve screwed directly into the engine block and call this one TYPE 2. (see photo below, BOTTOM line)

It appears the valve was mounted in two different ways and according to the limited information I have, the correct way for a 430 Squarebird is the valve directly into the block. (see photo from FoMoCo Service manual below)

http://www.rhyner.com/59jbird/photos/CHECKVALVE3.JPG

CHECK VALVE PART NUMBERS on the valve are:

10
P-85597-1




430MEL 09-29-2006 06:15 PM

RE: More on the 430 T-Bird's Vacuum Check Valve
 
My 430 has the valve screwed directly into the engine, no brass fitting. The previous owner/restorer states thats they way he found it, he was second owner. Where did you find check valve and tubing?

JBird 09-30-2006 12:22 AM

RE: More on the 430 T-Bird's Vacuum Check Valve
 
That agrees with the 59 Service manual however I have seen 2 identical tubes for 430's from 2 diffrent sources for the type 1 but they were lincoln's.

The source is Mike from the Lincoln Forum and he's in Canada.

KULTULZ 09-30-2006 05:44 AM

WATCH OUT! Another Brain Storm...
 
This is just conjecture J, but the mounting angles may have had something to do with how the engine was installed in the chassis. You had MEL forward mount and mid mount models (engine supports) and the differences (angle fitting to keep the supply tube closer to the engine) may be there.

One would need the first issues of the appropriate MPC as parts are superseceded (design change or obsoleted) (due to low demand), the catalog is usually updated to not show origional information.

To me, the angle mount would be more advantageous as it allows for less component vibration and chance of damage from running over something, say.

JBird 09-30-2006 11:08 AM

RE: WATCH OUT! Another Brain Storm...
 
Could be but the mount in the top photo is located in the same place as the mount on my 430 T-Bird and even looks like the same pad but you are correct. There is a difference and a reason for the difference. Could it be exhaust pipe bends due to cross member location?

Walter's tube was the same as the tube in the photo of the 430 above. Identicle right down to the spot welds on the mounting tab. The tube I bought from Mike is for a T-Bird style mounting as 430MEL says his is mounted. The other one must be for Lincolns.

Hawkrod 10-02-2006 11:01 PM

Dang it, I hate working this hard! There appear to be a
 
There are various flavors! It appears that 58-60 Lincoln and Merc used one style, 59/60 Tbird and some 58 Mercs used another. The part numbers seem to be:

B7A-9328-A Valve (vacuum pump check) 1958 Lincoln Mercury
B9S-9328-A Valve (vacuum pump check) 1959/1960 Lincoln Mercury Thunderbird
EDG-17536-C Tube Windshield Wiper Tube (on motor) 58 Mercury 383 w/std trans 59/60 Thunderbird
EDG-16978-A Tube Windshield Wiper Hose tube and clip assy 24" long 58/59 Mercury auto trans exc 2 door and 4 door sedan 58/59/60 Lincoln
372268-S elbow 58/59 Mercury exc 2 door and 4 door sedan 58/59/60 Lincoln.

What this all means is 58 Merc with a stick shift and 58/9 Tbirds did not use an elbow and used a different tube. 58-60 Lincoln and Mercury's exc merc stick shift and sedans (because sedans had a 312 instead of an MEL) used an elbow with the associated tube. I will tell you this was not fun to research as the tubes were obsolete quickly and service was to make something! Note I have re-edited this for clarity. Hawkrod

JBird 10-02-2006 11:39 PM

RE: Dang it, I hate working this hard! There appear to
 
Thanks Hawkrod59 for all that hard work!

It confirms I shouldn't use the tube I made from Walter's template nor use the brass fitting on my 59 T-Bird. It's things like that that get noticed right away at shows, long before the numbers are checked.

I'll be putting the check valve directly into the block and using the 1/4 inch tube instead of the 5/16ths inch Lincoln tube. If anyone needs dimentions from the T-Bird tube, I am working on a drawing which I will pdf for 430 Bird owners so they can make a tube if their's is missing.

Hawkrod 10-03-2006 12:04 AM

RE: Dang it, I hate working this hard! There appear to
 
Have you considered making these? Hard to find items like this can be a money maker. I'll bet you could sell a ton at $20 plus shipping or so. You have both styles and so you have the whole market covered! Hawkrod (and no, I have not crawled under my cars to see if I have one, I have been way too busy! LOL)

KULTULZ 10-03-2006 08:29 AM

RE: Dang it, I hate working this hard! There appear to
 
>There are various flavors! It appears that 58-60 Lincoln and
>Merc used one style, 59/60 Tbird and some 58 Mercs used
>another. The part numbers seem to be:
>
>B7A-9328-A Valve (vacuum pump check) 1958 Lincoln Mercury
>B9S-9328-A Valve (vacuum pump check) 1959/1960 Lincoln
>Mercury Thunderbird
>EDG-17536-C Tube Windshield Wiper Tube (on motor) 58 Mercury
>383 w/std trans 59/60 Thunderbird
>EDG-16978-A Tube Windshield Wiper Hose tube and clip assy
>24" long 58/59 Mercury auto trans exc 2 door and 4 door
>sedan 58/59/60 Lincoln
>372268-S elbow 58/59 Mercury exc 2 door and 4 door sedan
>58/59/60 Lincoln.

>Hawkrod

Hawrod,

Below is some information I offered earlier from the 60/64 FORD MPC;

"I was just going through the 60/64 FORD MPC and something caught my eye that may interest you. I stumbled across the information for the intake manifold source of vacuum, Basic PN 17536. There was a line available for service;

17536 Tube (Vacuum To Windshield Wiper Motor Hose)

60S (BIRD) (8cyl. 430) 6.23" long- 1/4" tubing * (no PN-denotes no longer serviced) cut from 91A 2269 (which is bulk brake line tubing)

60S (430 engine) Elbow (tube to intake manifold) - 90 degree angle-

353208-S

60S (430 engine) Nut 7/16"- 24 (1/4" inverted flared)

87943-S8"

The B7A 9328-A Check Valve was inline and had to be used with the base 312 if it is showing in the LINC-MERC MPC (have no idea why it is listed under LINC also).

B9S 9328-A had to be dedicated MEL useage, most likely a supersceded PN from 1958 (IMO) (I cannot vision the changing of the valve design-just positioning).





Hawkrod 10-03-2006 10:37 AM

RE: Dang it, I hate working this hard! There appear to
 
Not really of much interest to me in the context of this thread. The cumulative parts books are often full of deletions and errors and will list things that were still or last available and not older things long deleted. I use the yearly parts books rather than the cumulative ones. Because this discussion was regarding the tube on the side of the engine, I did not include the information about top of the engine hardware. I am not quite sure what you mean by this: "The B7A 9328-A Check Valve was inline and had to be used with the base 312 if it is showing in the LINC-MERC MPC (have no idea why it is listed under LINC also)." The parts books for 59 and older are all seperate divisions There is a Lincoln Book, a Mercury book, and a Ford book. All three show this part. This part is the only check valve shown for 1958 Lincoln's and 1958 Mercury's. I do not remember it on my 57 Tbird but I have to question whether or not it really is an inline valve. It is very possible that it was originally threaded and changed at some point but the 1958 books (printed in 1957) list this as the correct part for these cars with 430 Lincoln/Mercury, 383 Mercury, and 312 Ford engines. Hawkrod


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