Cooling

hi George

If you look elsewhere in old threads, some of us have discussed calibrating your temp gauge. By this I mean actually finding out what temp goes with what letter on the gauge. As the gauge is adjustable, 5 different gauges could produce 5 different readings. If you can borrow a thermometer or infared device then you can have someone jot down where on the gauge the needle is as you record various temperatures. Now all the guesswork is gone.

Once you have done that then you can see how the car behaves in various situations. My own attitude is that I want the car to stay adequately cool under the "worst case" scenario I might encounter.

My own belief is that the thermostat only keeps the car from running too cool. Once its open, its open. End of effect. Other people may have different thoughts.

So the real question is: how hot (in degrees of coolant) is too hot? 200? I dont like high temps as they are tough on gaskets, the cheesy overflow tank, hoses and so on, not to mention the engine components. So I run a 6 blade fan (best improvement I made!), add Liquid Kool to the cooling system, and flush once or twice a year. Some people have done things like a higher output water pump or electric fans. I live in New England so except for mid summer, my car lives an easiier life than yours plus I never go in cities.

So back to the question: how hot is too hot? Once you answer that, then you decide if you are staying under it, and if not then what options you want to pursue to get there.

John
58 Hardtop

Mine runs a little past half. With a 180 and new water pump and rad. You want to get the oil up to temp also. It burns off the junk.

I have a 4 row rad, a 7 blade flex fan and the Dearborn Classics reprod fan shroud with a 180 T/Stat. It runs 180-185.

True about the oil temp.

Keep your cool

I had my radiator rodded out during my rebuild and used antifreeze and distilled water mix for coolant. I currently am using a 6 blade flex-a-lite fan which moves a lot of air. I have a 180 t-stat and an overflow tank (hiiiighly recommend!) to catch overflow at shutdown. My mechanical gauge reads about 185, but, gets up to 195-200 at long red lights, or slow moving traffic. I had an electric fan, but the generator could not generate enough power. We all have enough electrical problems, so I took it off and am much happier with the flex-a-lite. I did have some major issues bleeding the air out of the new motor and it took about 3-4 episodes to evacuate the air pockets. My point, may have to get a mechanical gauge to know for sure, but I couldn't simultaneously hook up both gauges. I would like to try the fan shroud for better cooling and safety. John, what is you opinion of the fan shroud?

Sounds like you have done a lot of excellent work on your cooling system!!

I think if you want both kinds of sending units then you have to do a little plumbing and put a T fitting on for both sending units. If you know what the marks on the stock gauge really correspond to for actual temperature then this may not be necessary.

Opinion on shroud: I do not currently have one on but I did acquire one that I hope to adapt this spring. All posts on this site by people have indicated very good results. My opinion is, cost aside, its "free cooling" meaning that there is no cost to the engine at all unlike the electric fan or higher flow water pump. It's essentially good internal aerodynamics. I also take into account the fact that many later cars by many manufacturers all have some kind of shroud, so it was certainly not an odd-ball notion on Ford's part. According to my parts cataloges, Ford continued to use it on many TBirds and other models in the 60s.

If you car is not bullet-proof now (and it sounds great), then it certainly will be with a shroud.

I got mine on EBay for about $120 - it is off of a 1961 Galaxie and will not require much modification to fit. There is the Dearborn Classics model which lists about $200 + SH. I have also run into private people selling Dearborn Classics ones they did not need for around $150 so hunting pays off.

John

So from what I am reading, the concensus is, the thermostat is the least of my worries.That the 180 is just as good as the 160 as long as you have proper equipment to move the most air thru the rad as possible.Thanks for all the great info

The shroud works great. I had the flex fan W/O it, and now with. BIG DIFF !!! I ran a 160 stat for a short period. Put it this way, even just at idle, it wouldn't get hot enough for the heater to blow warm air. I run a 180 now. It pulls a LOT of air thru now with the shroud.
My rad core is slightly over size, so there's a gap at the sides, but for the most part, it looks like it belongs there.

As stated on previous posts, I've let that car sit and idle for over an hour on a 90 deg+ day. I used a meat thermometer (What an Okey huh?) But it never hit 190. Sat at 185 mostly.
I've been stuck in traffic. No worries.

I just found this older post and thought I'd make some comments. The thermostat does modulate based upon heat load, how fast the air moving through the radiator, and how fast is the water pump pumping and so forth so you do want a thermostat of the proper temperature installed. In the southern US in the summertime, it does remain pretty much open all the time especially when it is above 90 degrees. I've noticed that my truck with the Ford 223 engine runs really cool at highway speeds when it is really churning. It also has that big radiator really meant for a much bigger engine.

In regards to operating temperature, engine wear does increase with reduced temperature. At 180-200 deg there is a point where increased temperature doesn't improve engine wear significantly. Also, efficiency is improved in a warmer engine thermodynamically.

The one thing that I have found to be a major factor in air flow through a radiator is a shroud, it directs air flow and increases coverage when stationary. I have tried 160 and 180 thermostats in a few vehicles and temps are on average 10-15 deg higher that the thermostat when stationary.
The best thing you can get is a IR temp gun and check temp on the in and out tanks. I've done this with and without a shroud and the difference is very noticeable. It's a cheap investment that can save thousands

Richard

Our thermostat opens flow when the engine temp reaches the preset, and closes when the temp falls under the preset temp. It's just that simple, regardless of rpm, radiator temp, or water pump speed.

When I visited Mississippi, I saw things that blew this Yankee Boy away. I saw a motorcycle with a Chevy 350 CU IN engine, and a Mustang with a Chevy 350. Chevy parts are all over the South, and they are cheap.

Southern Boys create mechanical genius in their back yards and barns, using NO money. The 350 Mustang had no fan on the water pump because the radiator had an electric fan. Instead, it had an electric heater motor running the water pump with a short V-belt. Nothing else was on that belt. I thought about this simple setup long and hard:

Our engines get the hottest when sitting idle because the crank-driven water pump and mechanical fan are both going too slow. Water can't move and neither can air.

If you go with an electric radiator fan, 600-rpm won't push coolant fast enough, regardless of air flow. But this 'dual electric' combination blew me away because it's perfect.

The water pump's independent electric motor can run at a constant 2,000-rpm (or so) and satisfy all flow requirements, up to 'full racing' speeds. At the same time, lots of horsepower is saved for the rear wheels because the water pump never needs to spin at 4,000-rpm. Same story with the electric fan; it only turns on when the radiator gets hot.

The answer to our cooling system problems is three-fold: Coolant needs to flow (to convey heat), air needs to flow (to exchange heat), only then can the thermostat regulate engine temp's.

I agree with that totally Dave
The other advantage of the electric water pump is they can be set on a timer, similar to a turbo timer runs after shut down for a specified time, so when you shut the engine down it will still run along with the fan to continue to cool the engine and dissipates heat. I'm sure we've all seen that the temp is high after shut down until the water pump circulates the water again.

Richard

With my 59 Dodge the engine runs better with a 160 degree thermostat, with the 180 she runs hot.... the 59 T-Bird runs fine and I dont see any problems with a 160 or 180, but the Mopar is super picky.

What is standard?

I'll venture the opinion that the thermostat is to keep the engine from running too cool. Once it gets up to the cutoff for the thermostat and it opens, it becomes irrelevant. So, for example, in the first few miles after you fire the TBird up, it needs all that heat retained to have the engine components at proper operating temperature.

Anders: the Ford Shop Manual for my '58 refers to the two possible thermostats as "Low Temp" and "High Temp".

Trivia: did you guys know the thermostat has paraffin in it? It melts at a certain temp and allows it to open.

I like the electrical ideas for fan and water pump additionally as they allow for manual override. You can anticipate certain situations and start dumping heat sooner (you're on the highway on a hot day but soon to pull off into stop and go traffic. Easier to lose heat now then at a Stop light). (Of course this envisions the driver actually thinking, something today's cars rule out )

Since we are on cooling systems - - - I am curious as to what anyone thinks of a higher capacity water pump for the Squarebirds. I was looking at the 61-3 forum and after some reading realized Ford had produced an alternative water pump for the 390 that moved more water. For a Squarebird owner in a warmer area (Ray in Texas) this might be another option for upgrading the cooling system perhaps in tandem with a 6 blade fan etc.

As it is 8 degrees here, I find all these heating issues pleasant to think about . . .

John