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problem with replacement window rollers

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  • kimmc
    Experienced
    • Mar 5 2014
    • 126

    problem with replacement window rollers

    Last month I installed new window glass, weatherstripping, and all-metal rollers in our '59 convertible (see Donna's '59 resto-mod convertible). Yesterday I hooked up the window motors to check for smooth operation. Three out of 4 worked fine but the passenger side quarter window stuck after briefly starting down. It turned out that the cupped washer that slides along the track had been pushed through to the opposite side and the roller spring was causing the mechanism to bind. I figured there were a couple of possible causes; either the track had wide spot or maybe the cupped washer was of improper diameter. I removed the window today. The track was OK however the cupped washer looked to be the problem. While it was only fractionally smaller than the diameter of the track-riding part of the roller, the after-market cupped washer was considerably narrower and much less "deep-dished" than the OEM cupped washer. Each of the cupped washers on the new rollers was similar to the one pictured. I am salvaging as many of the old OEM cupped washers as possible and will put those on the replacement rollers, especially for the quarter windows. Pictures attached (the close-ups are a little out of focus...sorry).

    #2 roller with cupped washer pushed to other side of window track and binding on spring
    #3 roller with cupped washer in correct position and spring compressed
    #5 concave side; new washer on left, OEM washer on right
    #6 convex side; same arrangement as before
    #7 convex side, lower picture angle; differences between new washer on L and OEM washer on R are clear; notice wear mark on old washer with plenty of width left to remain on the track.
    Attached Files
  • kimmc
    Experienced
    • Mar 5 2014
    • 126

    #2
    problem with replacement window rollers

    This morning I got busy on my quarter window problem. I reinforced the rail as Nyles had done. For rail reinforcement I used 1/2 inch leg steel angle then drilled and tapped holes in the window frame for 10-24 machine screws. The exposed leg is on the outside of the frame as there is no clearance problem there. Also, I replaced the cupped washers on the new replacement rollers with the cupped washers salvaged from old rollers. Check out the picture of the new roller with the old cupped washer on it (on right) with the new roller and its cupped washer (on the left). It looks pretty clear to me that the modified roller will slide better on the rail. After some lunch I will re-install the window. Hope all goes well. Will let you know. I've attached pictures of the project.
    Attached Files

    Comment

    • partsetal
      Super-Experienced
      • Jun 4 2005
      • 850

      #3
      Were the rollers with the smaller cupped washers the steel ones offered by some of the small bird and squarebird parts vendors? I believe they sell in the neighborhood of 8.00 each. I was about to try some of them, but have been holding off.
      Carl

      Comment

      • kimmc
        Experienced
        • Mar 5 2014
        • 126

        #4
        problem with replacement window rollers

        Update: The quarter window is back in and working well. It travels up and down smoothly and the motor doesn't sound like it is straining. Fiddled with window adjustment but final touches will wait until the new top goes on next winter. If any of you ever remove old rollers don't throw away the cupped washer if it is useable. It may be a better piece than the one that comes with replacement window rollers. I'm saving mine in case I have a similar problem on another window.

        Comment

        • Tbird1044
          Super-Experienced
          • Jul 31 2012
          • 1346

          #5
          Carl:
          If my buddy John comes through, he will making a run of the "brass" rollers. These rollers would still need to use the original bevel washers. He is planning on making a run of 500-1000 rollers. He has the program set up for the CNC so now needs to get the materials and do the run.
          I keep after him as I want to use these rollers when I install my windows.
          Nyles

          Comment

          • Anders
            Super-Experienced
            • Jan 19 2008
            • 2213

            #6
            Ray, Can you please do a link to this or save this thread in the Technical Resource Library? I need to find this great ideas within a year or so

            Great job Jim!!
            sigpic..."Lil darling Ruth":)
            http://www.tbirdregistry.com/#33158

            Comment

            • YellowRose
              Super-Experienced


              • Jan 21 2008
              • 17188

              #7
              problem with replacement window rollers

              Done, Anders. I added it to the Window section in the TRL..

              Ray Clark - Squarebirds Administrator
              The Terminator..... VTCI #11178 ITC #6000 Yellow Mustang Registry (YMR) #12188
              Contact me via Private Message for my email address, or Call (Cell) 210-875-1411

              https://www.squarebirds.org/picture_gallery/TechnicalResourceLibrary/trl.htm
              Faye's Ovarian Cancer Memorial Website.
              https://faye.rayclark.info/index.html

              Comment

              • Joe Johnston
                Super-Experienced
                • Dec 23 2008
                • 720

                #8
                I had this same issue with my 57 and used salvaged washers as well. Has anyone investigated using a flat washer, or a punch out from an electrician's punch

                Post is edited. Just looked at Amazon and a punch like I was thinking of won't work because the ID will probably be too big as these punches require a draw bar to pull the dies together.

                Any one have a heavy duty shim stock or sheet metal punch to experiment with?
                Last edited by Joe Johnston; May 19, 2015, 09:47 AM. Reason: electrician's punch won't work!

                Comment

                • kimmc
                  Experienced
                  • Mar 5 2014
                  • 126

                  #9
                  problem with replacement window rollers

                  Note to thread: the rollers were from Casco I and about $8.50 each. I have not looked at rollers from other vendors to see if they have the same skimpy cupped washer. In my opinion, rollers with these washers are a potential problem. The Casco roller is a good piece (better than the OEM rollers in my opinion) as are the spring, flat washer, and hairpin. It's just the cupped washer that is a poor copy.

                  Ray: if you could determine who manufactures the rollers and make them aware of the issue, they could produce a correct cupped washer. Kim

                  Comment

                  • YellowRose
                    Super-Experienced


                    • Jan 21 2008
                    • 17188

                    #10
                    problem with replacement window rollers

                    Kimm, and all, you will be pleased to know that I contacted Casco to see who makes their all metal window rollers. It turns out that they do, as they make many other parts for our Tbirds. These rollers are not only used on Little Birds, Squarebirds, but also on the big Fords back then. Don, at the Bird Nest just told me that in '61, I think he said, or somewhere in the Bulletbird production, Ford switched to plastic rollers because they found that the metal rollers rolling in a metal window frame was causing metal on metal wear.

                    Casco asked me to send them pix of the OEM roller, which I will, and information regarding the problem ya'll are experiencing with their roller assembly. She said they have not heard that the cupped washer is not manufactured the same as the OEM version. I told her that what some of ya'll have had to do is to re-use the OEM cupped washer instead of theirs. They want to look into this and see if they can fix this. IF it turns out that they need to see an OEM cupped washer, what I would like someone to do, IF you can spare ONE OEM cupped roller washer, is to send one them. IF they need one to examine. They will let me know if they do not have any available and want one to examine. Kim confirmed in his post it was CASCO that he ordered them from. Joe's roller parts came with the car when he bought it.

                    I have checked the websites of ALL the major Tbird parts houses. The ONLY one I can find that manufactures and sells the metal window roller assembly is CASCO. All the rest who market them, market the plastic ones. That part # is 23240, whether in metal or plastic. I will let ya'll know what I hear back from CASCO.
                    Last edited by YellowRose; May 19, 2015, 08:57 PM. Reason: Additional Information

                    Ray Clark - Squarebirds Administrator
                    The Terminator..... VTCI #11178 ITC #6000 Yellow Mustang Registry (YMR) #12188
                    Contact me via Private Message for my email address, or Call (Cell) 210-875-1411

                    https://www.squarebirds.org/picture_gallery/TechnicalResourceLibrary/trl.htm
                    Faye's Ovarian Cancer Memorial Website.
                    https://faye.rayclark.info/index.html

                    Comment

                    • Anders
                      Super-Experienced
                      • Jan 19 2008
                      • 2213

                      #11
                      Thanks Ray. And even more, all who contributed to this thread I am thinking of let a skilled metalman make me accurate copies of the original in stainless steel. Anyone who have any information about those rollers made in brass I read about a year or three back? Are they still avalible?
                      sigpic..."Lil darling Ruth":)
                      http://www.tbirdregistry.com/#33158

                      Comment

                      • simplyconnected
                        Administrator
                        • May 26 2009
                        • 8778

                        #12
                        Why not simply re-use the old washers? They are already the right size, made of stainless and I have never seen one wear out. New ones will be the same as the old ones.
                        Member, Sons of the American Revolution

                        CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

                        "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
                        --Lee Iacocca

                        From: Royal Oak, Michigan

                        Comment

                        • partsetal
                          Super-Experienced
                          • Jun 4 2005
                          • 850

                          #13
                          I've never come across ones that were stainless. The problem with many of the tapered washers is that they get bent while in operation and will not give smooth window operation. I imagine a set of dies could be made to straighten them.
                          Carl

                          Comment

                          • simplyconnected
                            Administrator
                            • May 26 2009
                            • 8778

                            #14
                            Wow Carl, you're right. After reviewing my pictures, I do see rust on those OEM washers. It's the other side that is made of SS. - Dave
                            Member, Sons of the American Revolution

                            CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

                            "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
                            --Lee Iacocca

                            From: Royal Oak, Michigan

                            Comment

                            • YellowRose
                              Super-Experienced


                              • Jan 21 2008
                              • 17188

                              #15
                              problem with replacement window rollers

                              Even if there is rust on those cupped washers, they can be cleaned up, and used again unless they are bent, have bad wear or just not usable. Hopefully, CASCO will opt to fix the configuration of their cupped washers in their metal window roller assemblies. I will let you know what they say when I hear from them. As for the plastic ones that most everyone sells, I have no idea if they have the same problem with that cupped washer. If anyone has used the plastic version, it would be nice to know. I gather from past posts that those who have used the plastic ones have had some problems with them also regarding wear. It is interesting though, that Ford decided to go the plastic roller route in the Bulletbirds and big Fords after they started getting complaints, I gather, regarding the wearing of the metal rollers...

                              Ray Clark - Squarebirds Administrator
                              The Terminator..... VTCI #11178 ITC #6000 Yellow Mustang Registry (YMR) #12188
                              Contact me via Private Message for my email address, or Call (Cell) 210-875-1411

                              https://www.squarebirds.org/picture_gallery/TechnicalResourceLibrary/trl.htm
                              Faye's Ovarian Cancer Memorial Website.
                              https://faye.rayclark.info/index.html

                              Comment

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