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-   1958 To 1960 Squarebirds - General Technical Discussion (http://squarebirds.org/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=14)
-   -   Starter motor (http://squarebirds.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=22086)

Frango100 10-21-2017 11:34 AM

Starter motor
 
The last week the starter motor was turning over very slowly, almost not being able to start the engine. So i measured the battery voltage, which was ok at 12.7V, checked the wires, grounds and connections. All was ok. So today i removed the starter motor and found the brushes worn to almost nothing. But also the positive stud threads are almost gone, but doesn´t show signs of overheating.
What i think is strange, that there are four places for the field windings, but only three of them are in use:eek:. Didn´t have time yet to find out if this is normal, at least the starter motor was working fine until now. I have new brushes , but have to see if the positive stud is ok for re-use.
Edit: I just checked the manual and see that it is normal to only have three coils.

simplyconnected 10-21-2017 01:43 PM

CLICK HERE for your starter motor...

Frango100 10-21-2017 03:33 PM

Great foto gallery and text, thanks Dave. My starter looks a bit different on the Bendix side, it doesn´t have the large spring but looks more as a bearing.
What is the best way to connect the new brushes to the crimped/soldered side?
Unbelievable how clean your starter looked inside, mine is almost black. The positive connection bolt is made out of copper, do they sell this part separately? It is a two step bolt, thirst a thicker thread and then a smaller for the starter wire.

simplyconnected 10-21-2017 03:57 PM

Many of our vendors sell that copper starter bolt. I use kerosene (diesel fuel) to wash the inside. A good air hose or a few hours in the sun will help dry it out. That red paint is General Electric Glyptol, a special insulating paint. I don't want to melt or remove any of that with harsh solvents.

Funny you should mention the solder connection. I happen to be in my local friendly auto-electric shop where the old-school owner reached down and picked up a welding handle.

I was shocked. Well not really, but I was surprised at his most effective method for de-soldering that joint.

He had a six-volt battery connected to one end of the cables. So, one was ground. The other had a welding handle with a carbon electrode, normally used for cutting through steel. He stuck the carbon rod directly on the solder connection. The rod got hot and the brushes nearly fell out.

Then, he installed the new pair of brushes, crimped the metal over and added a little more solder. That left me thinking because I never saw or thought about using a carbon rod. The voltage was low enough where there were no sparks. The resistance of the carbon rod made a perfect heating element.

I suppose I could heat a good-size piece of steel with a torch, then use the hot steel on the solder connection. For a one-time operation that would do nicely.

Oh, one last word of caution... Do not paint your starter until you re-assemble it. Make sure your contact areas are bare and clean. I've seen beautiful rebuilds installed in cars but they wouldn't run at all. It doesn't take much paint to insulate 12-volts. The entire case is used for ground, from the mounting bolts to the end piece that holds the brushes. - Dave

newyear 10-21-2017 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by simplyconnected (Post 111882)
CLICK HERE for your starter motor...

What a fantastic resource this website is!

simplyconnected 10-21-2017 06:19 PM

Thanks Peter, but as you can tell by the pictures, we've been here many times. During one of those times, I took some pictures along the way.

Taking pictures makes the job twice as long but it is for the benefit of anyone who comes behind me. I'm glad they help. - Dave

Dan Leavens 10-22-2017 01:01 AM

Peter thanks for the compliment about our site. We are very fortunate to have Dave Dare as our Webmaster and others and their wealth of knowledge.
Which is why I always say this is the the best Thunderbird site on the planet.

Frango100 10-23-2017 02:49 PM

My starter motor doesn´t have any identification numbers on it, anybody knows what brand/type starter it is? I see several types of terminal posts for starters:confused:.

newyear 10-23-2017 03:12 PM

All I have is as stated in the 1958 Ford Thunderbird Shop Manual
Part Number FAR-11002-A
Normal Engine Cranking RPM 150-180
Min.Torque @ 5 volts
Ft.Pounds (Min) 15.5
(Amp.) Load (Max.) 550
Gear Ratio 16.2
No Load Amperage @12v 80

simplyconnected 10-23-2017 05:54 PM

I don't know if you can find the wrong starter motor as Ford used the same one in all 6-cyl, 8-cyl, cars, trucks, tractors, marine, construction equipment, etc. Then, when Ford went to 12-volts in 1956, only the field windings changed.

MEL engines use the same starter motor but the electrical post was moved to clear the exhaust manifold.

Certainly, Ford couldn't possibly produce the required numbers of starter motors to meet production demands. So, a number of companies made them for Ford. - Dave

Frango100 10-27-2017 09:27 AM

I just bought a new starter motor positive post via Larry´s Thunderbirds. Now waiting two weeks or so for it to arrive.

simplyconnected 10-27-2017 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frango100 (Post 112024)
I just bought a new starter motor positive post via Larry´s Thunderbirds. Now waiting two weeks or so for it to arrive.

Starter motors, generators and mechanical voltage regulators don't come in positive or negative ground. They only specify the voltage and maximum current.

Think about it, there is nothing solid state inside any of these components. Starter motors only have windings. Voltage regulators simply have relays, resistors and contacts.

So, how do boat people reverse their engines? By grinding a new camshaft. To reverse the rotation of a starter motor, simply switch either the field wires or the armature wires. (It's much easier to switch field wires inside the starter motor.)

I know a guy with a 55 Ford who had his battery connected in reverse. He brought the car to a garage and some kid installed the battery so he didn't notice for years. How on earth could that be? The car has a positive ground system but does it really matter?

Since the starter motor's field and armature were not changed, simply putting the opposite polarity on the motor has the same effect as switching both of them, causing the starter motor to turn in the same direction as before. Same story for the heater motor because it has separate field windings/armature, not permanent magnets. Gauges work from the heat that current causes, that's why there is no 'pos' or 'neg' on the posts of any Ford gauges. You simply cannot wire them wrong. Light bulbs don't care which direction, either.

BTW Frank, hang on to your old starter motor. It has many valuable parts inside, just in case... - Dave

scumdog 10-27-2017 06:23 PM

Ditto!
 
Just to add to what Dave said: in my younger days when getting around in a '4& F1 which was all original right down to the 6 volt system I used to at times refit the battery incorrectly after charging it up (a common occurrence as I couldn't afford a new one!) and would only realise it when all the gauges read backwards as I was driving along!

"Wow, this trucks MAKING gas instead of using it!!!" :-)

Frango100 10-28-2017 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by simplyconnected (Post 112031)
Starter motors, generators and mechanical voltage regulators don't come in positive or negative ground. They only specify the voltage and maximum current.

Think about it, there is nothing solid state inside any of these components. Starter motors only have windings. Voltage regulators simply have relays, resistors and contacts.

So, how do boat people reverse their engines? By grinding a new camshaft. To reverse the rotation of a starter motor, simply switch either the field wires or the armature wires. (It's much easier to switch field wires inside the starter motor.)

I know a guy with a 55 Ford who had his battery connected in reverse. He brought the car to a garage and some kid installed the battery so he didn't notice for years. How on earth could that be? The car has a positive ground system but does it really matter?

Since the starter motor's field and armature were not changed, simply putting the opposite polarity on the motor has the same effect as switching both of them, causing the starter motor to turn in the same direction as before. Same story for the heater motor because it has separate field windings/armature, not permanent magnets. Gauges work from the heat that current causes, that's why there is no 'pos' or 'neg' on the posts of any Ford gauges. You simply cannot wire them wrong. Light bulbs don't care which direction, either.

BTW Frank, hang on to your old starter motor. It has many valuable parts inside, just in case... - Dave

I will not change the starter motor, only the stud. I will put new brushes in and some new paint on it for the looks. Spending too much on this car already, so will try to keep it cheap where possible. Just send the radiator away for a new core. It was repaired a few months ago, but started leaking at another spot last week:(.

jopizz 10-28-2017 11:38 AM

After you replace the terminal I would check it with an ohmmeter to make sure it's totally isolated from the case.

John

simplyconnected 10-28-2017 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frango100 (Post 112051)
I will not change the starter motor, only the stud...

Sorry, I misunderstood. I thought you were getting a starter motor that included a positive post.

If you ordered #P 11102A Starter Motor Field Terminal from Larry's, it is a kit that includes the stud and all necessary insulators and nuts.

This is a common part that breaks because it is made of soft copper and people torque far more than 15-ft/lbs. Many torque wrenches don't start that low. Another cause: Do not let the terminal bear the brunt of vibration. Use a clamp on the engine block to support your starter motor wire. The 352 FE has a conveniently tapped hole on the passenger's side, just about in the middle of the block below the exhaust manifold. I use that one to strap the wire, with a 'cushion' around the wire made of tape or rubber. I also leave extra wire between the solenoid and engine for vibration. - Dave.

Frango100 10-28-2017 07:14 PM

All good suggestions Dave and John, I will follow that. Thanks.

Frango100 11-12-2017 09:42 AM

Soon i will receive the starter motor stud and can re-assemble the starter. There is quite some axial play on the armature shaft. Both front and rear thrust washers are in place. Is it normal to have quite some play on there? I couldn´t find any reference on this.

Frango100 11-25-2017 02:37 PM

So the stud arrived this week and I re-assembled the starter motor. Did a quick test on the bench and it worked well.
Re-installed it this morning and didn´t use the electrical fuel pump, just to test the starter a bit longer. It was working very well with a lot more power then i remember it had before, but of course the brushes where worn to their limits.
Then i used the electrical fuel pump to fill the bowls and wanted to start the engine. Surprise, nothing. I can hear the starter relay and a noise from the starter that its trying to do something, but no rotation.:(
I turned the crankshaft by hand, just to be sure that there was no hydraulic lock in one of the cylinders (even though i would not know why that should suddenly happen), but it was free to rotate.
Took the starter of again and removed the band, all looks normal. Didn´t had the time to continue the trouble shooting, but tomorrow morning i will put it directly on the battery again and see what it does.
Will be continued.....

Frango100 11-26-2017 06:16 PM

Problem solved. The paper like insulation wrapping around one of the field coils was damaged and the field wire was touching the housing. The insulation wrapping is very brittle after so many years and breaks easily. I put some insulation tape on it for now, but would like to restore it as it was.
Any ideas what to put on it or maybe best to take it to a professional for the right treatment?

simplyconnected 11-26-2017 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frango100 (Post 112490)
...I put some insulation tape on it for now, but would like to restore it as it was.
Any ideas what to put on it or maybe best to take it to a professional for the right treatment?

Frank, there is nothing technical inside your starter motor. Ford used simple cardboard and shellac on windings and Micarta between commutator segments. It doesn't take much to hold back 12-volts but then there is heat involved.

Vinyl tape and rubber are terrible in heat. I like using thin cardboard, like shirt board, with silicone pressed into it. Silicone II (made by GE) works well as it insulates electricity, heat and cold. A thin coat is all you need because even if the cardboard gets brittle and breaks the silicone will keep it together, much the same as shellac did back in the day only better. You notice red paint used on the inside of the housing in my pictures. That is Glyptol paint made by GE, used before they invented Silicone II. A small tube on Sinicone II is all you need. - Dave

Frango100 11-28-2017 05:08 PM

Thanks Dave. What is Silicone II, never seen that here.

simplyconnected 11-28-2017 09:37 PM

It's basically bathtub calk made by General Electric.


This product has a lifetime warranty so you know it's good stuff. It comes in white or clear. There may be other colors as well.
You can get this in smaller sizes. Once the tube is opened the product starts to cure. I have tried sealing it well but after about a month or so it cures too far into the tube. - Dave


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