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-   1958 To 1960 Squarebirds - General Technical Discussion (http://squarebirds.org/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=14)
-   -   Master cyl. bleeding (http://squarebirds.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=6078)

1960Bird 02-27-2009 06:25 PM

Master cyl. bleeding
 
I have installed a new master cyl. brake lines, all the tubing, shoes and drums...the whole nine yards. I now understand that I was supposed to bleed the master cyl. before it is installed (bench bleeding).
I don't ever remember bleeding the master cyl. before, although it has been 40 years since I did my last brake job. Is this master cyl. bleeding just needed for a dual brake system or do I have to do this too and if so do I have to remove the master cyl.from the car Then how in the heck do I bleed it?

Thanks for your help.

RustyNCa 02-27-2009 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1960Bird (Post 29043)
I have installed a new master cyl. brake lines, all the tubing, shoes and drums...the whole nine yards. I now understand that I was supposed to bleed the master cyl. before it is installed (bench bleeding).
I don't ever remember bleeding the master cyl. before, although it has been 40 years since I did my last brake job. Is this master cyl. bleeding just needed for a dual brake system or do I have to do this too and if so do I have to remove the master cyl.from the car Then how in the heck do I bleed it?

Thanks for your help.

The bench bleeding is to get the air out of the master cyl, seems like you could do it on the car, even though it's probably easier on the bench. I have a bench bleed kit that came with a master cynl I did. You just insert that into the master cyl's outlet and run a tube back into the resevoiur and carefully pump the master till you no longer see air in the tube.

I don't remember being told to do it in the past either, but now that is what is done. I assume it's so when you are bleeding the system, you are only worrying about the lines and you have verified you don't have any air in the master itself.


JohnG 02-27-2009 06:41 PM

Since you already have it on the car, try bleeding it from there - nothing to lose.

You could fill it with fluid, disconnect the line from it and you or someone very slowly work the pedal in and out. Watch for bubbles coming up in the supply. Tap on the side with a rubber mallet now and then to dislodge air pockets. At some point you ought to be pushing fluid out the front opening at which point you're on the road to success. Make sure and put rags under it and wash the area afterwards as the DOT 3 will attack paint on you.

John

1960Bird 02-27-2009 10:12 PM

Thanks
 
Thanks for your help...

rhertel 02-27-2009 11:21 PM

Bleeding
 
The new method of bleeding a master cylinder is using a plug where the brake line would go in and pump the cylinder until it is you have no play left. With the bird type, you would need to but the fitting with the stop light switch onto the cylinder and plug the brake line fitting. The a little plastic threaded plug. They are very cheap, any good part store would have them.

Rich Hertel
Master A.S.E. Certified Technician

Dan Leavens 02-28-2009 11:44 AM

Steve JohnG's suuggestion about putting rags under the cylinder is a very good point, if you don't want your paint on the firewall to come off with the DOT 3. This is nasty stuff, :eek:as I had to to get my firewall redone from the dripping and the master cylinder repainted ( argent ) when I had them bleeded. Lesson learned:rolleyes:

1960Bird 02-28-2009 01:54 PM

Plug the master Cylinder?
 
Rhertel,
Are you saying that all I need to do is to plug the Master Cylinder brake line fitting and then pump the master cylinder and watch for the air in the reservoir, then when the brake pedal is hard...I'm done. Then I do not need to hook a hose up and run brake fluid back into the master cylinder?

Either way can I do it on the car or must I remove?

KULTULZ 02-28-2009 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1960Bird (Post 29067)

Are you saying that all I need to do is to plug the Master Cylinder brake line fitting and then pump the master cylinder and watch for the air in the reservoir, then when the brake pedal is hard...I'm done. Then I do not need to hook a hose up and run brake fluid back into the master cylinder?

Either way can I do it on the car or must I remove?

On the car and gently depress the brake pedal so as not to create more air bubbles. Once you have a hard pedal, reconnect the brake line and bleed the line. No need for return hoses to the reservoir.

JohnG 02-28-2009 02:39 PM

best case have someone pump the pedal for you and stand look down at the resevoir. Have them move it in and out very slowly. You should see streams of bubbles come up to the surface. That's when you're making progress. When you get to the point when the pedal has firmness, you have essentially won. The rest of the exercise is getting air out of the system , but now you have a funcional pump (which is all the pedal and master cylinder really are) to drive new fluid through the system.

What do you guys reading this like for an order to bleed the individual brakes?? My guess would be passenger rear first, then driver's rear then passenger front then finally driver's front. Any thoughts?

John

protourbird 02-28-2009 04:38 PM

The ONLY way you can reliably bleed the master is to bench bleed it with a bench bleed kit. You can pump the pedal until you're blue in the face but if there's air in there only a bench bleed will get it all.

rhertel 02-28-2009 06:46 PM

bleeding
 
You have to remove the master cylinder and do it off the car.

The bleed procedure for non front wheel drive and non abs brake vehicles , you alway start the farthest wheel from the master cylinder and finish at the closest.

Rich

1960Bird 02-28-2009 07:54 PM

Thanks Everyone...
 
I'll let you all know how it goes.

KULTULZ 02-28-2009 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by protourbird (Post 29073)

The ONLY way you can reliably bleed the master is to bench bleed it with a bench bleed kit. You can pump the pedal until you're blue in the face but if there's air in there only a bench bleed will get it all.

Please explain (to me) how a master cylinder can only be bled on the bench (as long as it is at level on the chassis)? I understand the return line kit, but not the bench. I am dumbfounded here...

tbirds8 02-28-2009 09:07 PM

You might need a helper but you CAN bleed this on the car????????????

KULTULZ 03-01-2009 09:14 AM

Let me try this again...

The MC is more easily bled off the car if being replaced. But it can be bled on the car say if one runs it out of fluid while bleeding the system.

There are quick kits available that replace the actual brake lines (nylon fittings and tubing) and return the expelled flushed fluid from the MC back into the reservoir bowl(s). One can also fashion a similiar device out of an old brake line. Try to keep the return line below the actual bowl fill line so as not to make a mess and not to ingest air on the return stroke.

Once the hard pedal is realized, you simply remove the adaptor and connect the brake line(s). Bleed the lines again to insure no air was ingested while replacing the brake lines.

JohnG 03-01-2009 09:29 AM

Question: What did a Ford mechanic do back in 1958??? No "bleed kits" then that I know if - I think these began to appear in the 70s.

rhertel 03-01-2009 11:26 AM

bench
 
When the master cylinder is mounted on the car, the cylinder bore never completely bottoms out. Thus the is always a high possibility of air left in the system. If the master runs out of fluid while bleeding, there is alway some fluid left in the m/c bore.
This type of bleeding with no fluid return has only been recommended for the last several years. Today when you purchase a new or rebuild m/c, there are plugs in the box. Why we like the type of bleeding, is when you finish bleeding the cylinder on the bench, you leave the plug in the master, and the is no fluid dripping during the transfer.

With a single m/c, you could problem get away with doing the bleeding on the car, but why take a chance. For those that have to bleed brakes alone, the do sell self bleeding wheel cylinders bleeder screws. They allow fluid to be pushed out, but not to return. You would swap out the bleeder with these, slightly open the bleeder for the wheel to be bleed. Put a piece of hose on the end of the bleeder and into a container. Pump the brakes, fluid and air will come out, but the stop fluid and air from returning. Close that bleeder and move on to the next. They look like regular bleeders, so there would be no point deductions.
Hope this help clear things up.
Rich

KULTULZ 03-01-2009 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnG (Post 29104)

Question: What did a Ford mechanic do back in 1958??? No "bleed kits" then that I know if - I think these began to appear in the 70s.

Most likely stood around and argued like we are doing... :)

In a garage, you will have mechanics that have been taught different ways at different shops. For one to actually open a shop manual would be a sign of weakness. So then you always get a couple that will put them in a vice, fill them up and proceed to see how far they can shoot brake fluid across the shop.

You will get used to it.

rhertel 03-02-2009 12:39 PM

Pressure bleeeding
 
Yes they did have bleed tools in the 50's. Pressure bleeders, a big roll around assembly that was full of brake fluid and had a fitting to insert shop air. You would put the adapter that was made for you particular m/c, add pressure to the tool, and force bleed the brake system. I still have one, up in the attic and has not been used for years.

That is in the shop manual.

Rich

Yes every one has learned different techniques through the years, but it is nice to share new ways of doing things.

1960Bird 03-02-2009 05:42 PM

The 1960 Shop Manual says...
 
After all this I dug out my 1960 Shop Manual.

Group 10-6 Section 3 of the Shop manual

"To Install the New Master Cylinder..."

"Install the brake fittings, gaskets and bolt on the forward end of the cylinder. Do not tighten the Brake Bolt.

Fill the master cylinder reservoir with heavy duty brake fluid to within 1/2 inch of the top of the filler neck.

Push down on the brake pedal several times to let the air escape from the cylinder at the fitting, and then tighten the brake bolt"

The Shop Manual shows that the Brake Bolt is the Banjo bolt that connects to the front of the master cylinder.

The Shop Manual also has instructions for pressure bleeding of the brake lines with some sort of a pressure bleeder that you charged the pressure tank with 10-30 pounds of air pressure.

1960Bird 03-14-2009 04:16 PM

Got Brakes...
 
First I installed speed bleeders as I had to do the brake bleeding by myself. I tried the Shop Manual approach (see above) did not work at all. Then I installed a short length of brake tubing I had, to the output fitting from the master cylinder and ran it back into the master cylinder making sure it was covered with brake fluid. I pumped the brakes five or six times...out came some air bubbles, then none and the pedal got hard. Put the regular brake line back on the Master Cylinder and bleed the brakes. Bingo. I have brakes and they are not at all spongy.
The speed bleeders worked good, although I had to really get them tight for them to seal OK.

Bob M 03-14-2009 07:40 PM

When bench bleeding or on the car to bleed the master cyl. DO NOT PUSH THE BRAKE PEDAL ALL THE WAY DONE UNITL YOU GET THE AIR OUT OF THE MASTER CLY.then when you start bleeding each line pump your brake peddle 4-5 times and hold down open brake bleed to remove air, I used alumium foil instead of rages to drain away the brake fluid away from any painted surfaces.


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