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  • orwin
    1960 Tbird
    • Jun 17 2008
    • 142

    Painting - Opinions wanted

    My 60 HT restoration is about ready for paint. It is completely disassembled, but the front and rear suspension have been redone and the steering is installed so it can be rolled around.

    The question is should I install the brakes, motor, driveline, radiator etc. before or after painting? I can see pros and cons either way:

    Paint now and reassemble later: Stripping and painting are less likely to mess up installed parts, easy to access everything.

    Install drivetrain now, paint afterwords: Make sure that everything is working and avoid damaging new paint job putting in the engine and working around the fenders. Worst case if there is trouble, the engine and trans might have to go in and out more than once.

    PS - I'm on the members web pages but that is somewhat out of date. I just posted recent photos on Flickr http://www.flickr.com/photos/orwin/s...7632251140309/

    Opinions from the members and from any pros out there?

    John
    John Orwin
    1960 HT 430
    VTCI #11290
    Tbird Registry #1590
  • Guest

    #2
    Paint ...

    I would put the drive line in first and make sure everything is functioning correctly. I'm assuming that you have or would paint the engine compartment before installation. You would also want to paint your door jambs, inner doors and edges, inner hood and trunk lid, etc. Then before painting the car use tape and paper or cardboard to completely mask off the engine compartment and radiator support. Hope your paint comes out great. Mike
    Last edited by Guest; December 15, 2012, 05:45 PM.

    Comment

    • jopizz
      Super-Experienced


      • Nov 23 2009
      • 8308

      #3
      I would certainly paint the engine compartment before I installed the engine and radiator. Mike made good points about painting the door jambs, door edges, under hood and trunk area. I did that on my car and painting was a snap. It took a lot more masking before painting but it was worth it. I also installed the brakes and got them functional. The last thing you want to do is ruin a new paint job by spilling brake fluid on it.

      John
      John Pizzi - Squarebirds Administrator

      Thunderbird Registry #36223
      jopizz@squarebirds.org 856-779-9695

      https://www.squarebirds.org/picture_gallery/TechnicalResourceLibrary/trl.htm

      Comment

      • orwin
        1960 Tbird
        • Jun 17 2008
        • 142

        #4
        Here is the engine compartment, painted with my detail gun. I now have the disc brakes and steering installed. The car needs to be stripped to bare metal and painted. I could continue and reinstall the engine, etc. or do that after the paint is done.

        John
        Attached Files
        John Orwin
        1960 HT 430
        VTCI #11290
        Tbird Registry #1590

        Comment

        • simplyconnected
          Administrator
          • May 26 2009
          • 8778

          #5
          I can tell you how Ford did it... The body came straight from the Body Shop with NOTHING in it at all.

          Since your car was already painted, I won't go through the preliminaries. I will say that when the car was painted, the doors and deck lids were open.

          The four painters went through a choreographed regimen, as they did every minute with 'the next car'. They start under the hood, then lower it onto a wire 'holder-upper'. Then they quickly do the front wheel wells and part of the rockers. They do the inside but spend more time around the body's door frame and the door's outer perimiter (there's a painter on each side of the car). Then they do inside the rear wheel wells, and the inside of the trunk, and lower it onto another wire that keeps it raised a couple inches.

          The next set of painters do the skins, front to back, top to bottom. The least amount of time they get is the very back of the car. Even on new cars, you can notice the paint is scant because the car is moving along and the painters have to 'catch up' with the rear. New models get one base coat that looks like ****. It's just a dusting of paint. Then they get three clearcoats, and into the oven (@250*F).

          When a hot oven is involved, you can understand that nothing can be in the body.

          As soon as the car is painted, workers protect the paint with fender shields (hard plastic 'skins' formed to the contours of the fenders) that stay on until the car is nearly done. You can imagine, the dash, wire harnesses, carpet, seats, seat belts, glass, axles, spindles, engine & trans (installed together), and everything else is installed after the body is painted.

          The last operation is to fill all liquids. If any spills happen, plain water easily washes away antifreeze, windshield washer fluid and brake fluid. There is NO paint damage. The very last operation is the 'California Car Wash' (it's very aggressive). We test every car for leaks.

          I realize aftermarket paint jobs are different. But the sequence of assembly is identical. If you work carefully there is no reason to scratch a beautiful paint job from assembling parts.

          The sequence is: Body Shop, Paint Shop, Trim (electrical harnesses, door & side glass, headliner, windshield and backlite, wiper motor and arms, heater box, front and rear light housings, dash, carpet, convertible top), Chassis (meaning, Engine & Trans, Axle, fuel tank, and Front Suspension), and Final Assembly (horns, evap radiator & fan, master cylinder & booster, battery, wheels, muffler system, console & seats, liquid fills). The Drive-Away Garage does all the adjustments (headlight aim, toe-in, idle).

          I can help you put your pics on your site. Let me know when you're ready. - Dave
          Member, Sons of the American Revolution

          CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

          "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
          --Lee Iacocca

          From: Royal Oak, Michigan

          Comment

          • keith
            Super-Experienced
            • Feb 13 2010
            • 564

            #6
            This a problem that I struggle with.

            I like the motor and trans installed and anything else in the engine compartment put in place. I don't enjoy watching someone lean over a freshly painted fender with or without a fender cover.

            That's just me, one of my many hang ups.
            Keith
            Sedalia, Mo.
            sigpic
            CLICK HERE for Keith's web site

            Comment

            • orwin
              1960 Tbird
              • Jun 17 2008
              • 142

              #7
              Right.

              Picture the reverse of this - 900lb of 430 + COM going back in. Although the shop manual suggests that the trans can go in first by itself. One slip and...



              John
              Attached Files
              John Orwin
              1960 HT 430
              VTCI #11290
              Tbird Registry #1590

              Comment

              • jopizz
                Super-Experienced


                • Nov 23 2009
                • 8308

                #8
                You're right about the weight. When I installed my engine and trans I put the trans in first. Not only that but I hoisted in the bare block and then installed the heads and intake when it was in the car. When I see someone lift the engine and trans using one of those carburetor plates it gives me the shivers.

                John
                John Pizzi - Squarebirds Administrator

                Thunderbird Registry #36223
                jopizz@squarebirds.org 856-779-9695

                https://www.squarebirds.org/picture_gallery/TechnicalResourceLibrary/trl.htm

                Comment

                • simplyconnected
                  Administrator
                  • May 26 2009
                  • 8778

                  #9
                  I'm sure everyone agrees that this operation requires proper equipment and experience sure helps quite a bit.

                  The factory had two guys; one on the hoist and one in the pit. They worked all day in unison as one, stuffing a dressed engine & trans into a car body each minute. I know, I know... this isn't the same. That's all those guys did all day, every day and they made it look stupid-easy. (Like NBA players shooting 3-pointers... looks easy, now YOU try it.) Ford marries the engine and trans in an offline sub-assembly operation because of the different combinations. It's much easier and faster to line things up and bolt them together when they're out in the open with plenty of space to work.

                  The factory used bolt-on eyelet plates on the heads. The carbs were already on. But think about this... If those two guys made $200/day (which they didn't) and they stuffed 500 cars/shift (which they did), each guy was paid $0.80 for each car. Offer any mechanic two dollars (which includes a handsome 20% tip) and see what he says. Production painters work the same. Offer a painter five bucks to paint your car and see if it stands up to a 'factory' job.

                  I still say, two experienced guys working together can easily stuff an engine and trans without scratching the paint and without incident. Whenever I stuff an engine, my car is OFF the wheels and jack stands hold up the frame. It's a solid body and the engine/trans is on approved chains. Stuffing an engine with the wheels on the ground is an unsafe recipe for disaster that I don't want to think about.
                  Member, Sons of the American Revolution

                  CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

                  "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
                  --Lee Iacocca

                  From: Royal Oak, Michigan

                  Comment

                  • Yadkin
                    Banned
                    • Aug 11 2012
                    • 1905

                    #10
                    Originally posted by jopizz
                    You're right about the weight. When I installed my engine and trans I put the trans in first. Not only that but I hoisted in the bare block and then installed the heads and intake when it was in the car. When I see someone lift the engine and trans using one of those carburetor plates it gives me the shivers.

                    John
                    This is the exact opposite on how we took the stuff out of my car, therefore it makes the most sense to do it as you described.

                    Comment

                    • Guest

                      #11
                      If your still going to bare metal the rest of the car I would do that, put down sealer and then install the engine.

                      I like to have the engine in and running prior to doing the final paint, just in case it has to come out for whatever reason

                      I just dropped the 368 and box into the Continental Mark II complete, this is the easiest way to on these cars.
                      Attached Files

                      Comment

                      • Anders
                        Super-Experienced
                        • Jan 19 2008
                        • 2213

                        #12
                        Last time I took my engine out, we split it with the tranny. One of the guys who helped me thought it could be done in one go, but I never dared. As I am planning to paint her soon, I will take it out again, and go for a two piece again. The motor lift I can borrow have itīs limits ( similar to the yellow on post #11 ) , and as the Squarebirds are closed between the fenders, it have to go up high before it can drop. Therefor I need to have the arm out as much as possible, and it stresses the the motor lift with all that load, so I donīt dare to take it out in one go.
                        By the way, I totally LOVE that gold paint on that motor!!!
                        On a side note: Last time I have my engine out, I gave it a bit of a touch up and painted my exhaust manifolds in a dark grey metallic tone using High Temperature Stove Color. It have realy worked well, and looks pretty much the same after 2 years of running. Good for up to 800 Celcius ( 1472 Fahrenheit ) Very nice.
                        sigpic..."Lil darling Ruth":)
                        http://www.tbirdregistry.com/#33158

                        Comment

                        • simplyconnected
                          Administrator
                          • May 26 2009
                          • 8778

                          #13
                          Anders, I love you like a brother BUT you gotta use good heavy equipment. Look what's going on here:

                          This cherry picker is a 2-ton capacity. 4,000-lbs is serious business. Engines w/trans usually weigh around 1,000-lbs. so there's plenty of safety.

                          Richard has his chains bolted into 3/8" exhaust manifold holes in four places for good control and plenty of safety. The engine has most of the 'final dress' complete with the A/C compressor, generator and P/S pump mounted. That's the way Ford did it. The only thing I see missing is the starter motor and manifolds.

                          If you use a good spreader bar (I made my own), there's really no reason why you can't drop the engine & trans completely ready to run with valve covers, carb and exhaust manifolds. Then, there's no leaning over newly painted fenders, trying to mount iron castings. Thunderbird engine bays aren't that tight. Mustangs are impossible to remove exhaust manifolds without pulling the engine or the heads. They're just too close to the strut towers and subframe to use tools.

                          Before I drop an engine in, I run it up to temp on a cradle with coolant.

                          If oil pressure or any issue comes up, I can more easily fix it outside the body. All those engines at Ford were ran through 'cold test' and 'hot test' before they reached the assembly plant. Pulling a brand new engine back out is unnecessary and costly.
                          Member, Sons of the American Revolution

                          CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

                          "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
                          --Lee Iacocca

                          From: Royal Oak, Michigan

                          Comment

                          • tbird430
                            Super-Experienced
                            • Jun 18 2007
                            • 2648

                            #14
                            Originally posted by orwin
                            Right.

                            Picture the reverse of this - 900lb of 430 + COM going back in. Although the shop manual suggests that the trans can go in first by itself. One slip and...



                            John
                            LOVING that '59 Ford Skyliner in the background too!!!
                            sigpic
                            The 1960 Ford Thunderbird. The WORLD'S most wanted car....

                            VTCI Member#6287.

                            Comment

                            • simplyconnected
                              Administrator
                              • May 26 2009
                              • 8778

                              #15
                              Originally posted by orwin
                              ...Although the shop manual suggests that the trans can go in first by itself...
                              Of course. There's no need to pull the engine if only the trans will be rebuilt.

                              Let's see what Ford says:
                              1960 Thunderbird Shop Manual
                              Pg 1-24 (in the 352 Engine section).
                              [2] Engine Removal and Installation... "The procedures given are for the engine without the transmission attached. If the engine and transmission are removed as an assembly, install standard eye bolts with 1/2"-14 threads in the bosses at the top rear of the exhaust manifolds."

                              Pg 1-44 (in the 430 Engine section),
                              [2] Engine Removal and Installation... "The procedures given are for the engine with the transmission attached. The engine installation is shown in Fig. 9."

                              So pulling the 'engine only' (or trans only) is personal preference. Ford says pulling the engine can be done properly with or without the transmission. Above all, be safe and take your time. This is very heavy equipment that may require bull work. - Dave
                              Member, Sons of the American Revolution

                              CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

                              "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
                              --Lee Iacocca

                              From: Royal Oak, Michigan

                              Comment

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