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  • #16
    torque monster

    Interesting commentary, but I love the "toys" in the pictures!

    Ray Clark - Squarebirds Administrator
    '59 Tbird "The Yellow Rose Of Texas" aka "Tweety Bird"
    "It's Hip To Be Square"
    Thunderbird Registry #33025 VTCI #11178

    Contact me via Private Message for my email address, or (Cell) 210-875-1411 (Home) 210-674-5781

    http://www.squarebirds.org/picture_gallery/TechnicalResourceLibrary/trl.htm

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    • #17
      Originally posted by YellowRose View Post
      Interesting commentary, but I love the "toys" in the pictures!

      What did you find interesting?

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      • #18
        torque monster

        Both your comments, Ron and Dave's. They are educational...

        Ray Clark - Squarebirds Administrator
        '59 Tbird "The Yellow Rose Of Texas" aka "Tweety Bird"
        "It's Hip To Be Square"
        Thunderbird Registry #33025 VTCI #11178

        Contact me via Private Message for my email address, or (Cell) 210-875-1411 (Home) 210-674-5781

        http://www.squarebirds.org/picture_gallery/TechnicalResourceLibrary/trl.htm

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by YellowRose View Post
          Both your comments, Ron and Dave's. They are educational...

          Ahhh I thought maybe you had something specific you might have read? It has always been one of my strong suites, to learn as much as possible about new vs old technology in cars. I am a mechanical engineer by trade, and although it has nothing to do with the Automobile industry it truly is amazing the cross over. I design painting and Powder Coating systems, and Mechanics..............well is mechanics. However controls and sensors are what intrigue me the most.

          It is no wonder that cars of today do what they do, both in fuel mileage and in HP! In 2009 I built a 2003 Ford Lightning, I bought the truck in 2004 and slowly added mainly appearance, mods from Billet Wheels to custom Grill etc.

          Once that was all done I decided to build the Motor.....what is amazing to me what the ability and ease to get 600 RWHP on pump gas. What was even more amazing was the Ability to get 800 RWHP well really 791 but close enough out of race fuel and a program and pulley change.

          To do that in an old school motor isnt achievable.......I find it like going back in time on this build.........and how difficult it really is going to be to get just 500 RWHP out of this motr and the expense to do so.

          I took 5.7 litres 348 CI Mod motor and produced 800 RWHP, I am building a 482 CI FE with some impressive parts and will be lucky if I get the 500 RWHP. Some ask me why are you even doing this...........I always chuckle and my response is................because of the challenge #1 and #2 I have never done a carb motor!

          I am about as anti Carb as it gets............I really cant appreciate them no matter who builds them or how great they can be built............they are a metered fuel leak.

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          • #20
            Ron, my hat goes off to you for attempting this project. I'm sure you will learn a lot from trying different thermal dynamics with coatings, etc. In my experience, well, coatings are overrated. But hey, why not give it a try. I hope this project turns out to be a huge success.

            As you already stated, there is much testing and tweaking to do before you're satisfied with the result. You have all the right stuff straight out the gate which puts you well ahead of the guys who piecemeal their projects due to lack of funds.

            Certainly, a mechanical background should be first, when doing automotive projects. The one-two punch is a well-rounded electrical foundation to add to that mechanical. Throughout engineering history, the mechanical guys and the electrical guys never saw eye to eye. In fact every function on a car had a mechanical override. The only electrical components on an engine were ignition controls (that were absolutely necessary). The mechanical guys fought tooth and nail to keep cars that way.

            We have enjoyed strong electric motors since before the electric light bulb. But, Trico vacuum wipers ruled supreme on all cars up until electric wipers were offered as an extra cost option around 1959.

            In 'automotive' there was no standard for electrical systems because they were thought of as a necessary evil. My '55 Ford has a six volt positive ground system. A dynamo that produced 180 watts maximum ran off of one belt, shared with the water pump. It stayed that way until auto companies realized Americans demanded and were willing to pay more for luxurious accessories (like turn signals) so suppliers demanded electrical standardization between auto manufacturers.

            Mechanical Engineers ran the show and they kept carbureted systems around as long as they could. Very slowly they succumbed to improvements offered only by electricity like electronic ignition, then pulse width modulated fuel injection using proportional integral derivative to loop feedback for the ultimate goal; to meet improved CAFE standards mandated by the US federal government (and the EPA).

            Today's estorers face several problems. Our engines were engineered to 1960 specifications but the fuel and oil are now drastically different. Improved tires and safety options never heard of back then, are now the standard.

            It is impossible to find young mechanics who work on classic engines and transmissions. If they cannot plug in a computerized OBD readout, they simply pass.

            The old Mechanical Engineers saw this complete about face coming. Now, Mechanical Engineers are harder to find than Electrical. In reality, the lines of demarcation are gone so we all need both disciplines. - Dave
            My latest project:
            CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

            "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
            --Lee Iacocca

            From: Royal Oak, Michigan

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            • #21
              Hey Dave

              Being I have spent the last 20 yrs in the Industrial coating world, I can tell you that internal coatings magic is real. The question is, is it worth the $.

              I can tell you that I work directly with NIC Industries, and there is some data regarding Thermal coatings and some real world tests that actually prove their effectiveness. Here is the problem with them...............its overly expensive and the results in a plain Jane motor isnt real good.

              There is a guy in Portland Oregon his name is Russ Meeks, Russ developed a custom Ceramic coating for the US Military. Russ showed me the test data of a fully built race motor that had every component in that engine coated with either thermal barrier, Oil Shedding coatings or Bearing surface slick. The before and after dyno showed an 7% increase in HP, a 15% reduction is internal oil and water temp.

              Its a simple concept really, The bearing slick reduces drag, the thermal coatings shed heat and the oil shedding coating also reduces drag. However what I did find interesting is all the HP gains where achieved at 5000 RPM's and above.

              So yes it works, however that particular motor cost over $10K to prep and coat. I have no doubt in my mind that it will work...........my only concern is for how long will be the question. The environment in that combustion chamber is quite hostile, so the question is will it hold up.

              Whats crazy is it cost me more money on the Iron Heads then it would have for a set of Ebocks. LOL Although a set of Ebocks out of the Box dont impress me all that much...........but these do!







              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by BDASTRK View Post
                ...Although a set of Ebocks out of the Box dont impress me all that much...........but these do!...
                Nice heads! Do they fit a 352?

                Edelbrocks offer a good start and they are very available. They leave an extra 1/2" that may be shaved off the deck, which is exactly what I did for my 351W. I milled those Performer RPMs right down to the valve seats. They also come with stainless thread inserts, silica bronze guides, Viton seals, stainless valves, hard sintered metal seats (from powdered metal), hardened spring washers (perches), good springs, retainers, keepers, etc. The valves rotate by design.

                Edelbrock FE heads have large valves that will only fit 390s and above. That eliminates Squarebird engines.

                Hard to tell from pics but it looks like your heads have coated bowls, runners, threads, and I see bronze guides. I'd like to see a finished assembly.

                Cerakote C-7300 and C-7600 spray-on (air dry) coatings are new to the market and have only been tested for two years. I'm concerned about the different coefficient of thermal expansion between the coating and aluminum alloy. In Michigan, ambient temps can reach twenty below F, and of course the combustion chambers heat very quickly under pressure/vacuum extremes. I would like to see some real statistics with samples from a large population.

                Originally posted by BDASTRK View Post
                ...However what I did find interesting is all the HP gains where achieved at 5000 RPM's and above.
                I don't know that this is practical for classic and family car engines that rarely reach 4k-rpm. - Dave
                My latest project:
                CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

                "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
                --Lee Iacocca

                From: Royal Oak, Michigan

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by simplyconnected View Post
                  Nice heads! Do they fit a 352?

                  Edelbrocks offer a good start and they are very available. They leave an extra 1/2" that may be shaved off the deck, which is exactly what I did for my 351W. I milled those Performer RPMs right down to the valve seats. They also come with stainless thread inserts, silica bronze guides, Viton seals, stainless valves, hard sintered metal seats (from powdered metal), hardened spring washers (perches), good springs, retainers, keepers, etc. The valves rotate by design.

                  Edelbrock FE heads have large valves that will only fit 390s and above. That eliminates Squarebird engines.

                  Hard to tell from pics but it looks like your heads have coated bowls, runners, threads, and I see bronze guides. I'd like to see a finished assembly.

                  Cerakote C-7300 and C-7600 spray-on (air dry) coatings are new to the market and have only been tested for two years. I'm concerned about the different coefficient of thermal expansion between the coating and aluminum alloy. In Michigan, ambient temps can reach twenty below F, and of course the combustion chambers heat very quickly under pressure/vacuum extremes. I would like to see some real statistics with samples from a large population.


                  I don't know that this is practical for classic and family car engines that rarely reach 4k-rpm. - Dave

                  I think what is missing here is performance engine vs standard every day run of the mill rebuild. I dont do every day run of the mill rebuilds, if I am going to do a build regardless if it is for OLE MA's grocery getter to a drag strip motor its going to be performance based.

                  I also think that we are getting way off base from my intended concept which is to keep the head from soaking into the Head and the Cylinder. Running Iron heads was a desire, it wasnt my only option.

                  I could have easily Ran a set of CNC Blue Thunder heads and Intake and got a boat load more HP and still ran it on the street.........but again this wasnt my intention.

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