Announcement

Collapse

Down for Maintenance

Squarebirds.org will be down for a few hours on Sunday morning (Feb. 24th) just after midnight Eastern Standard Time, for maintenance. Eastern time is Coordinated Universal Time (or UTC-4), for all our international members. - Dave
See more
See less

430MEL Alternator Mounting Bracket?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • 430MEL Alternator Mounting Bracket?

    I have been researching an alternator mounting bracket for one of our Tbird owners with the 430 engine. Apparently, C.R.A.P. does not manufacture an alternator mounting bracket for the 430 engine. Not enough demand. He wants to get rid of that generator and go to an alternator. Has anyone done this with their 430 engine? If so, where did you get your mounting bracket to hang the alternator on? If you know of a company that makes one, please let us know. If you had to make your own, he would love to have the details of how you did it.

    Ray Clark - Squarebirds Administrator
    '59 Tbird "The Yellow Rose Of Texas" aka "Tweety Bird"
    "It's Hip To Be Square"
    Thunderbird Registry #33025 VTCI #11178

    Contact me via Private Message for my email address, or (Cell) 210-875-1411 (Home) 210-674-5781

    http://www.squarebirds.org/picture_gallery/TechnicalResourceLibrary/trl.htm

  • #2
    It is important to note, all alternators are not created equally.

    I usually count on making my own brackets for the alternator I intend on using.

    Since this is custom work, the question has many variables depending on belt position, type of belt, type of alternator (and engine to be used).

    I usually make a "C" bracket that encircles the alternator for front-mounting on the alt. In that "C" bracket, I drill a pivot hole and slot an elogated hole for belt adjustment. Some alternators use a back brace as well. The rest is spacers (1/2" electrical thinwall works well) and long threaded rod.

    Restorers usually run into fabrications like this on a regular basis. Welding & grinding capabilities are always helpful. The alternator needs a proper pulley type (they are all interchangable, even between brands).

    The same applied when I mounted a Mustang P/S pump on my Y-Block for my rack & pinion steering gear. Aftermarket A/C is yet another bracket fabrication. - Dave
    My latest project:
    CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

    "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
    --Lee Iacocca

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by YellowRose View Post

      I have been researching an alternator mounting bracket for one of our Tbird owners with the 430 engine. He wants to get rid of that generator and go to an alternator. Has anyone done this with their 430 engine? If so, where did you get your mounting bracket to hang the alternator on?
      Very simple-

      You either use the original GEN mounting bracket;



      Or use a later LINC 430/462 setup;

      Comment


      • #4
        430MEL Alternator Mounting Bracket?

        Thanks, Gary! That is a totally different bracket than what is used on the 352 engine! That is a very sturdy looking original bracket. Either one should make it very simple to change from a generator to an alternator. Especially the Lincoln version, I would think. That looks to be about as simple as you can get. I see the graphic name indicates that it is a 1966 Lincoln 462 mounting bracket. I gather that for the Lincoln mount there is another piece bolted to that bottom "eye". But it is so covered in grease, I thought it was part of the steering arms. With your activity on the 430MEL Engine Forum, I figured you would come up with something. It also looks like it would be pretty easy to make your own Lincoln type bracket also, if you could not find one. There ya go, Don, and others. I hope JohnG will grab this for the TRL so others in the future with 430 engines who want to go to an alternator will have this to go by.
        Last edited by YellowRose; June 28th, 2010, 05:29 PM.

        Ray Clark - Squarebirds Administrator
        '59 Tbird "The Yellow Rose Of Texas" aka "Tweety Bird"
        "It's Hip To Be Square"
        Thunderbird Registry #33025 VTCI #11178

        Contact me via Private Message for my email address, or (Cell) 210-875-1411 (Home) 210-674-5781

        http://www.squarebirds.org/picture_gallery/TechnicalResourceLibrary/trl.htm

        Comment


        • #5
          LINC went to ALT in 1963 (I believe) so finding changeover parts should not be difficult.

          The first photo was an early LINC GEN mount. The ALT is a 1G Series so the changeover is not that difficult.

          I haven't been active on the MEL Engine Forum for quite a while.

          Comment


          • #6
            If there are any specific question(s) anyone needs answered, I will do to the best of my ability.

            WARNING: I am a FORD PURIST and do not approve of GM ONE-WIRE conversions. They cause too many problems. I also try and preserve the original appearance of the engine, i.e. making the conversion appear as an original feature. Most likely all this conversion needs is an early FORD 1G ALT, which will make the changeover period correct in appearance. It will require an external ALT voltage regulator which further (IMO) maintains the period correct appearance.

            There are also 1G upgrade kits which will raise the delivered amps if needed. This will prevent having to go to a 3G ALT upgrade which will definitely be noticed.

            -ALTERNATOR UPGRADE TECHNICAL INFO ARTICLE-

            Comment


            • #7
              Previous Post Correction

              Originally posted by KULTULZ View Post

              You either use the original GEN mounting bracket;



              CORRECTION-

              I have made a serious mistake and presentation. The mounting bracket shown above is NOT a GEN bracket but actually a 63/67 LINC ALT bracket.

              What is actually shown is a gentleman installing a later 2G ALT in the original 1G bracket. It is now obvious for one to do a clean changeover would be to source the ALT bracket shown above- C3VY 10151-A and adj. brkt C3VY 10145-B.

              Shown on this 1958 LINC 430 is the actual GEN mounting bracket-



              The photo below is the 1967/68 LINC 462 setup.

              If this has caused anyone any difficulty, I sincerely apologize.

              Comment


              • #8
                PM Exchange Between Myself And 430 J-BIRD Owner

                I am posting this in hope(s) it will answer someone else's question(s) regarding an early vehicle ALT upgrade-

                Originally posted by KULTULZ
                Originally posted by (HIDDEN)


                KULTULZ,

                As I'm sure you can figure, I'm not that mechanically knowledgeable about this process, so any help you can provide would be much appreciated. What I'm trying to do is pre-order all the parts before bringing it into a mechanic. Some are recommending a GM Del-co 1 wire unit which I think is about 65 amps. I am curious as to your thoughts and what other parts I should/need to get. How many amps do you think I need (radio, AC, electric wipers, power seats, windows, 430 engine)? If you have a suggestion of a specific alternator it would be great. If you've had luck with a specific brand or type, again, helpful. Note that I am less concerned about keeping the engine appearing original then simply getting into reliable use state.

                I know that some suggest a 3 wire and a Ford alternator. If you name it, I order it and bring it in!

                Again, much thanks.
                (HIDDEN),

                I am uncomfortable recommending a changeover for you as having the 430 engine, most everything is going to have to be fabricated. Even using the GEN mount, you will need the later ALT adjusting arm. You are paying a mechanic by the hour I assume and it can get expensive if all of the gathered parts are not directly bolt-on.

                Here is something I would like you to consider. It is an ALT built within a GEN original case. It will go to your present brackets and is a one-wire hook-up. The cost is 369.95 from SUMMIT but when you add up all of the time and frustrations of collecting parts and hoping everything will go together, you will most likely have that amount invested.

                Here is the URL-

                -POWERGEN-



                If you weren't so far away, I would love to do the conversion just to learn as I have seen no documentation of a 430 BIRD ALT upgrade.

                Let me know what you think and we will go in another direction if wished.

                GARY

                WASH DC METRO
                ______________________________________________

                Originally posted by KULTULZ
                Originally posted by (HIDDEN)

                Gary,

                Thanks for the updated information. I did also happen to find the same PowerGen on another site late yesterday. Although I assumed it would be price prohibitive, I did e-mail the company that makes them. At $370, lower than I expected, I'm inclined to agree with you as I believe the fabrications costs and time to assure the belt lines up could easily amount to a substantial labor cost. This really should take no time to install.

                FYI, for about $20 more the company make one with a second wire that can be run to the dash generator light. Both are 75 amps with an internal regulator and put out 60 amps at idle.

                Since I'm not the guy to chart uncharted waters when it comes to vehicle upkeep, I think this is the way I'm going to go.

                Much thanks to you, Ray and Dave for all your help. I will post how it goe$.

                That answers one of my questions about the unit.
                One wire ALT have their own set of problems, this being one of them.

                (Referring to the available additional harness to have the warning lamp operate properly)


                Again, gathering all of the parts and paying a tech clock time is going to be expensive. This is the fast and clean way out.

                Would you mind if I transfer these exchanges to the main board for others to read? I will leave out your name if desired.

                And you must get back and tell us how it is doing.

                Gary

                Comment


                • #9
                  430MEL Alternator Mounting Bracket?

                  Thanks for that information, Gary! I did not suggest the alt in a gen case because I was thinking of the Gener-Nater version http://www.gener-nator.com/orders.htm

                  That unit is like nearly $900! I did not realize that PowerGen makes one also for a lot less. We even have the link to it in the TRL!

                  This unit won't get him 100+ amps down the road, if he wanted to add cooling fans, or other equipment that draws a lot of amps. However, it should certainly take care of his present needs and made it very easy to swap out. No hassle over making or finding ALT brackets. If I had known about this when we went through the hassle of modifying an existing L bracket, I would have gone that route instead. Thanks again!

                  Ray Clark - Squarebirds Administrator
                  '59 Tbird "The Yellow Rose Of Texas" aka "Tweety Bird"
                  "It's Hip To Be Square"
                  Thunderbird Registry #33025 VTCI #11178

                  Contact me via Private Message for my email address, or (Cell) 210-875-1411 (Home) 210-674-5781

                  http://www.squarebirds.org/picture_gallery/TechnicalResourceLibrary/trl.htm

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by YellowRose View Post

                    Thanks for that information, Gary!
                    It is no problem. I just want enthusiasts to enjoy their cars, cheaply and safely.

                    This unit won't get him 100+ amps down the road, if he wanted to add cooling fans, or other equipment that draws a lot of amps. However, it should certainly take care of his present needs and made it very easy to swap out. No hassle over making or finding ALT brackets. If I had known about this when we went through the hassle of modifying an existing L bracket, I would have gone that route instead. Thanks again!
                    100A ALT is not really needed (IMO) unless one modifies the fuel system (EFI), as you stated an electric cooling module and/or sound. I would think that this unit would also power the conv top asm in a sufficient manner (with addition of large CCA battery).

                    If one found the LINC brackets, a 3G upgrade would not be that difficult.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by YellowRose View Post

                      I did not suggest the alt in a gen case because I was thinking of the Gener-Nater version http://www.gener-nator.com/orders.htm

                      That unit is like nearly $900! I did not realize that PowerGen makes one also for a lot less. We even have the link to it in the TRL!
                      I just glanced over the website and have come to the conclusion the product he offers (Gener-Nater) is appearance correct and offers much more detail, hence the cost.

                      If I were doing a DEDICATED RESTORATION (and was independently wealthy) I would choose his product.

                      Power-Gen offers the same (or near same product) in a much less detailed version. It is all that is needed for a mild restoration/upgrade.

                      The FE BIRD ALT conversion is much more forward but the MEL conversion has not been detailed yet (to my knowledge).

                      I think it is a good product for someone that is not mechanically inclined and has to pay outside labor. One can apply a decal and a few other details and the slight appearance difference(s) would not be noticed by most people.

                      But then again, I am anal...

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I am not one to tell owners what to do with their rides, but I will offer food for thought and sound ideas.

                        A modern Ford 130-amp anternator costs around $50 or so from a bone yard, complete with harnesses and plugs. (Right Ray? Ray just sent me one from his local bone yard, for that price.)

                        Even if you paid a mechanic to fabricate a couple brackets, the cost of the alt and the labor will be less than the PowerGen.

                        Even if the PowerGen bolts to your brackets, it is a 'one of a kind' low-amperage alternator that NO autoparts store will deal with. So, what will you end up with? Another unique part that is underpowered, overpriced, and you're locked in.

                        Use common sense and modern OEM production parts that can be found in every auto parts store across the whole country. Brackets may be a little tricky, but once they are made, they should last forever. That's my choice, but you do what you want since it's your car. - Dave
                        My latest project:
                        CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

                        "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
                        --Lee Iacocca

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Dave, I think the PowerGen fills the gap with those of us who preffer to stay "original" with our old Birds. This unit allows our engine compartment to look OE, but still have SOME modern day edge- as far as driveability is concerned....

                          sigpic
                          The 1960 Ford Thunderbird. The WORLD'S most wanted car....

                          VTCI Member#6287.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            And this is why I suggested the unit to the owner.

                            He is at the mercy of a repair shop. Most shops would never take-on such a modification as it most likely will require more time and effort than it is worth to them. A specialty custom shop will cost an arm and leg.

                            Now if one is able to perform his own repairs and fabricate (and is not concerned regarding originality) a later ALT swap is acceptable.

                            Decals are available to make it appear as OEM. It is also one-wire which will make the original regulator and harness unnecessary. I (myself) would disable the components and leave them installed to complete the original appearance.

                            There is also a huge chance in using take-off parts. What if he had paid the bill for the conversion and either the ALT was defective or later took a dive? He would still have to find a replacement (if the warranty was good) and pay the shop again to install the ALT. It would be more reasonable (IMO) to at least have the take-off checked before install or use it as a core for a quality rebuild. When all of the dust settles, he will have about the same amount of money invested.

                            60A @idle and 70A @ cruising is more than enough for this car. Compare the output to the original GEN.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by KULTULZ View Post
                              ...[WARNING: I am a FORD PURIST and do not approve of GM ONE-WIRE conversions. They cause too many problems...
                              Originally posted by KULTULZ View Post
                              And this is why I suggested the unit to the owner. ...It is also one-wire which will make the original regulator and harness unnecessary...
                              "PowerGEN provides the looks of a generator with the output & reliability of an alternator, and offers one-wire operation." -PowerGen

                              Ok, which is it? I'm laughing my butt off as I read these contradictions. You guys who don't wrench on your cars, beware. Don't spend a load of money for an inferior part that is unique and expensive.

                              "Use common sense and modern OEM production parts that can be found in every auto parts store across the whole country."

                              But hey, it's your money and your car. Do what you want. I found 70-amps to be inadaquate for an electric fan. So did OEM's. - Dave
                              My latest project:
                              CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

                              "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
                              --Lee Iacocca

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X