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fuel pump woes

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by Colo66 View Post

    Thanks to Kultulz for sharing his information, it is very interesting! It would be interesting to know if the C1VE-A rod superceeded any of the rod(s) listed in TSB-17.

    The block P/N reference came from the fuel pump rod listing, 9400, 49-59 Ford MPC. The B9SZ-6009-A block assy is not listed in either the 49-59 MPC or the 60-64 MPC. Just the B9LE-6009-A for 59 and C0SZ-6009-A for 60. There is the possibility that there was a mistype in the B9LE part number and should read B9SZ.
    B9LE is LINC specific as C0SZ is FORD (BIRD in this instance) specific. The 59 LINC 430 and 59 BIRD 430 had diffent HP ratings. The 60 LINC went to 2V while the 60 BIRD retained the 4V. This would explain the 6009 part number differences (most likely piston and cam differences).

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Fuel Pump Diagram From 1958 MERC Shop Manual-

    Two Piece Actuating Arm

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Thanks GTE427 for the pic!
    I have a 49-59 MPC on CD but I can not download the illustration due to copyright. The B8S pump looks like it has a 2 piece arm assy while the C0LE is one piece. I would love to know if there is any difference in length/ratio. I think that would shed light on the different rod length. Does anyone have a C0LE-A pump that we could gently dissect?

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  • GTE427
    replied
    C0LE fuel pump

    See attached pdf from the 1960 Ford Parts and Accessory Catalog for the illustration of pump C0LE-9350-A
    Attached Files

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    GREAT RESEARCH AND INFO!

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  • GTE427
    replied
    I have seen the Carter Two Port Fuel Pumps, --ports indexed correctly for the TBird-- and both pumps, AC and Carter, are Illustrated in the 1960 Parts and Accessory Catalog dated Nov59. If I can get an image, I'll submit later.

    In looking at the 1960 Parts catalog, both pumps --B8S & C0LE-- are listed with the C0LE already being listed as replaced by the B8S pump in the Nov 59 printing. Though this didn't show in the OSI till much later.

    Below is a summary of the data from OSI catalogs. All catalogs are the final in their Volume besides the July72 which was an interim issue. I've attached the same info in a text document that's easier read, wouldn't keep the spacing when pasted into this thread.

    OSI Catalog Listings FD-7632

    Eccentric
    B8S-6287-A RB C0SZ-6287-A OSI V3 July 67
    B8S-6287-A RB C0SZ-6287-A LM OSI July 66
    C0SZ-6287-A NR - OSI V4 Jan 80

    Fuel Pump
    B8S-9350-A - - Not Mentioned OSI V3 July 67
    B8S-9350-A NR - OSI V4 Jan 80
    B8SZ-9350-A NR - OSI V4 Jan 80
    C0LE-9350-A - - Not Mentioned OSI V3 July 67
    C0LE-9350-A RB B8SZ-9350-A OSI V4 July 72
    C0LE-9350-A RB B8SZ-9350-A OSI V4 Jan 80

    Pump Arm
    B8S-9376-A - - Not Mentioned OSI V3 July 67
    B8S-9376-A NR - OSI V4 July 72
    B8S-9376-A NR - OSI V4 Jan 80
    C0SZ-9376-A - - Not Mentioned OSI V3 July 67
    C0SZ-9376-A NR - OSI V4 Jan 80

    Push Rod
    B8S-9400-A RB C1VE-9400-A OSI V2 June 61
    B8S-9400-A RB C1VE-9400-A OSI V3 July 67
    B8S-9400-A RB C1VE-9400-A LM OSI July 66
    C1VE-9400-A RB C1VY-9400-A OSI V4 July 72
    C1VE-9400-A RB C1VY-9400-A OSI V4 Jan 80
    C3VY-9400-B RB C3VY-9400-C OSI V4 July 72
    C3VY-9400-B RB C3VY-9400-C OSI V4 Jan 80

    RB=Replaced By
    NR=Not Replaced

    Year Specific Parts Books FD-7752

    Part No Year Engine Source
    B8S-6287-A 1959 430 Parts Book 1959
    B8S-6287-A 1960 430 Parts Book 1960
    B8S-9350-A 1959 430 Parts Book 1959
    B8S-9350-A 1960 430 Parts Book 1960
    C0LE-9350-A 1960 430 Parts Book 1960 (Replaced by B8S-9350-A)
    B8S-9400-A 1959 430 Parts Book 1959 (.375"OD x 4.875"Lg)
    B8S-9400-A 1960 430 Parts Book 1960 (.375"OD x 4.875"Lg)
    Attached Files

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Be advised that these pumps under discussion (58/60) are TWO PORT PUMPS. The pump used on the LINC SPECIFIC 430 (61/65) and 462 (66/68) are THREE-PORT. CARTER was the vendor on the THREE PORTS.

    Interesting observation on the AC and CARTER though...

    The reason(s) for the two vendors is most likely hidden in a 60 TSB.

    Leave a comment:


  • GTE427
    replied
    I believe the C0LE pump was used on the 60 TBird 430 and this was the Carter fuel pump. The B8S was a AC pump. The TBird pumps all had the inlet line at 9 o'clock, the discharge at 6 o'clock. Lincolns varied the locations of their inlet and discharge locations, Ive seen 9 o'clock inlet, 7 o'clock disch & 11 o'clock inlet, 6 o'clock disch, maybe more variations exist. I can't add anything about the pushrod lenghts or arm assemblies.

    I didn't think there were any differences between the TBird Carter and AC fuel pumps, maybe someone can add more as to why the C0LE pump was replaced by the B8S pump.

    Leave a comment:


  • GTE427
    replied
    Dexter,

    I have the OSI for the period, list the info you're looking for and I'll look it up for you.

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by Colo66 View Post

    The block P/N reference came from the fuel pump rod listing, 9400, 49-59 Ford MPC. The B9SZ-6009-A block assy is not listed in either the 49-59 MPC or the 60-64 MPC. Just the B9LE-6009-A for 59 and C0SZ-6009-A for 60. There is the possibility that there was a mistype in the B9LE part number and should read B9SZ, but I would think that would be remote. I don't think the differences in the blocks has much to do with the different rods but rather a change in fuel pumps as the fuel pump rocker arm are different between the two years.

    Again, its curious to note that the C0LE-A arm was replaced by earlier B8S-A without a reference to the fuel pump rod. As a foot note, the timing chain cover P/N is the same for both years, B9SZ-6019-A and the long block for 59 (in the 49-59 MPC)has a C0ME-6010-A P/N but for 60 as not replaced.
    B9LE and B9SZ (C0SZ) 6009 are correct. C0SZ 6009-A would be a 4V short, specific to the 60 BIRD as the 60 LINC/MERC 430 was 2V.

    The B9LE is the short used in the LINC (also maybe MERC). B9SZ is BIRD specific so something(s) in the short assembly is different between the two.

    The C0LE pump would have been for the 60 LINC 430 2V. It may be FORD had to use the previous 4V pump on the BIRD for proper fuel delivery. This is the only logical explanation I can gather.

    Interesting discussion.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Ok.......I measured my fuel pump rods...The C1VE-A (C1VY-A) rod is 4.881 inches long and the C3VY-C is 4.810. Both are .373 in diameter. The difference is around .070 inch which don't sound like much until you factor in the fuel pump arm ratio. I have the B8S-A pump and, just a rough measurement, came up with a 1.6 ratio (maybe a little more) which would make about 1/8 inch difference in the diaphragm movement between the two rods. I'm not sure what the travel of the pump diaphragm is but it can't be much. That makes sense that the C0LE-A pump was replaced by B8S-A pump (although a little less fuel output) without a recommendation to change fuel pump rods. So, installing a C0LE-A pump on the longer rod may not allow the diaphragm to fully fill the chamber in the fuel pump or may even damage the diaphragm by over stretching. It would be interesting to know what the Lincoln MEL pump rods measure.
    Please let me know if I figured something wrong!

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Hi Ben!
    I will measure both rods and post here and I will try and get a pic as well.
    Thanks to Kultulz for sharing his information, it is very interesting! It would be interesting to know if the C1VE-A rod superceeded any of the rod(s) listed in TSB-17.
    I have an original 1960 Tbird shop manual, a 49-59 Ford MPC and also a 60-64 Ford MPC. I wish I had an obsolete/supercede/interchange parts catalog. By comparing both MPC, this forum, 58-60 OFS, Alan Tast book on Thunderbirds, and actual NOS parts, I arrived at my earlier post. The next step is to measure the the eccentric travel, the fuel pump arm travel along with the rod length to prove my theory. The block P/N reference came from the fuel pump rod listing, 9400, 49-59 Ford MPC. The B9SZ-6009-A block assy is not listed in either the 49-59 MPC or the 60-64 MPC. Just the B9LE-6009-A for 59 and C0SZ-6009-A for 60. There is the possibility that there was a mistype in the B9LE part number and should read B9SZ, but I would think that would be remote. I don't think the differences in the blocks has much to do with the different rods but rather a change in fuel pumps as the fuel pump rocker arm are different between the two years. Again, its curious to note that the C0LE-A arm was replaced by earlier B8S-A without a reference to the fuel pump rod. As a foot note, the timing chain cover P/N is the same for both years, B9SZ-6019-A and the long block for 59 (in the 49-59 MPC)has a C0ME-6010-A P/N but for 60 as not replaced.

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by Colo66 View Post

    I have the same problem with my 60 430 bird. What I have learned is the following;

    Fuel Pump Eccentric

    59/60 C0SZ-6287-A

    Fuel Pump

    59/60 B8S-9350-A
    60 C0LE-9350-A replaced by B8S-9350-A

    Fuel Pump Arm Assy

    59/60 B8S-9376-A for B8S-9350-A pump
    60 C0SZ-9376-A for C0LE-9350-A pump

    Fuel Pump Rod

    59/60 "Id by 2 groves opposite end from bronze tip
    use with B9LE-6009-A" (service block?)
    C1VE-9400-A

    59/60 "Use with B9SZ-6009-A only"
    Unable to find listing for this block.
    C3VY-9400-B

    (NOTE: B9SZ was most likely replaced by C0SZ 6009-A)

    The two listed pump rods are different length; the C1VE-A is shorter (I think) than the C3VY-B. Judging by the fuel pump arm P/N the C1VE-A rod is for the B8S-A pump. I have both rods NOS and can measure them if any one is interested.

    I am not sure why they list or what the significant difference is in the two listed cylinder blocks other than the B9LE-A is service replacement and the B9SZ-A is factory installed.
    Interesting. Where did you come across this information?

    6009 is the Basic PN (Service) for a short block asm. Judging by what you have come across, there was a LINC SHORT (B9LE) and a FORD (BIRD) (B9SZ) short. One would need both the FORD and the LINC-MERC MPC's for this period to find the reason(s) for the differences.

    The 58/63 rod length should be the same (1963 saw the 430 re-engineered) (after a major re-design in 1961)

    The rods also under went changes, brass tip-oil-lite tip, all stainelss steel.

    Leave a comment:


  • 65cobra03
    replied
    fuel pump woes

    Hi colo66
    The rod i bought & installed is marked C1VY9400A on the pkg. I can kick myself for not measuring it b4 installation I am assuming i have the shorter of the 2 could you measure your's & let all of us know the difference in demensions
    Thanks BEN

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    I'd say you are in center field. Great advice.

    Leave a comment:

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