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430cid Woes...

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  • 430cid Woes...

    Well as the title states I have a small problem with my '60 430cid re-detail. I now have a small coolant leak on the right side of my block/head area. We had the car running so great (in the garage), then we noticed a small puddle under the right lower A-arm last night before the test drive. It only appears to leak coolant after the engine has ran enough to build up coolant pressure (duh).

    The highest place up, from laying on the ground with a flashlight, I can see the coolant leak from is the LOWER exhaust manifold to head bolt, the 2nd bolt from the FRONT of the motor- passenger side.

    We have a family wedding in Waco,TX this weekend so I'm taking a break form the 'ol 1960 Bird, and I have to work next Saturday as well. All I know is this coolant leak really blind-sided me guys. I really had hoped to make it to a big car cruise on Aug.8-9th in my Bird. I just don't want to have to pull the motor again. My father thinks it is a cracked head, but I don't see how. All we did was take the heads, exhaust manifolds, intake manifold, and oil pan off. Repainted EVERYTHING and installed new Fel-Pro blue gaskets (in my opinion the BEST out there).

    Oh well, sorry for the long thread. I guess I just wanted to vent. I'll try and post some pics of where I can see the leak when I have time to work on her again....

    -Jon R.
    Last edited by tbird430; July 11th, 2008, 10:57 AM.
    sigpic
    The 1960 Ford Thunderbird. The WORLD'S most wanted car....

    VTCI Member#6287.

  • #2
    Jon:

    VERY sorry to hear about this.

    Is the leak from the gasket between the head and the block, or from the bolt itself?

    Is that the area on the gasket that had a coolant hole blocked off? Did you decide to open that area on the gasket?
    Bart
    1960 Hard Top/430
    Thunderbird Registry Number 1231

    Comment


    • #3
      That is what is odd Bart. I thought head gasket at 1st as well. That lower 2nd exhaust manifold bolt (where I can see coolant drop off the end of) is HIGHER up than the head gasket! Water/coolant can't run uphill, correct? The intake manifold & lifter valley cover both appear to be dry as a bone.

      I have to hand it to you Bart, you think like I do. I left that center water port closed on my new Fel-Pro head gaskets since the one I removed was closed off as well. I still don't think it is a bad ideal to open them up though, especially when the 2 water pump "ear" small t-stats are removed.

      I'm at a loss right now. I think taking a break from Beverlee (my T-Bird) this weekend will be good either way. Then I'll regroup and decide what to do. I'm pretty sure I'll remove that exhaust manifold 1st to get a better view of the coolant leak. I'm almost 90% sure I'll have to lift the motor out of its' mounts and block it up to remove that exhaust manifold too....

      Have a GREAT weekend Bart.
      Last edited by tbird430; July 11th, 2008, 02:21 PM.
      sigpic
      The 1960 Ford Thunderbird. The WORLD'S most wanted car....

      VTCI Member#6287.

      Comment


      • #4
        Now I'm glad that you didn't open up that hole. Just one less variable to think about at this point.

        I'll take a look at mine in that area and think about it too.

        Taking a break is a good idea.
        Bart
        1960 Hard Top/430
        Thunderbird Registry Number 1231

        Comment


        • #5
          With it get warmer (no scratch that HOTTER) and all the cuts, bumps, and scratched up knuckles, I figured a break was a great plan. I've just been sooo tired lately. I had hoped to take my wife out Thursday night & cruise in Beverlee to a local burger & shake drive-in where an Elvis impersonator performs. What's cool is this joint opened in 1960 and still looks like an old '50's malt/soda/burger joint. Oh, well. It will happen sometime though...

          I'll talk to you Birder's later. Feel free to post up ANY ideals/advice....

          -Jon
          sigpic
          The 1960 Ford Thunderbird. The WORLD'S most wanted car....

          VTCI Member#6287.

          Comment


          • #6
            Jon -- since you didn't get your wish for Thursday, I'll tell you about my similar wish.

            The first year that I had my T-Bird, my one great idea was to take my wife, and two girls to the Sonic Burger and Shake about 5 miles up the road on a Friday night.

            At 9 PM, we drove up and had a great 5 mile cruise, and of course Burgers, and Shakes -- and many nice comments about the car.

            We left at almost 10 PM, got 1 block down the road, and the car died in the left lane -- NO LIGHTS -- completely dead. A black car, stuck at night in the left turn lane. I called 911, they sent a cop, he parked behind me with his cop lights on so no one would hit me from the rear -- one really nice cop.

            We called for a flat bed wrecker, and towed her home ($65). The cop gave my wife and girls a ride home in the back of the cop car -- which I think they liked much better than the T-Bird (I don't blame them).

            My kids still go out with me for Burgers and Ice Cream, but my wife still doesn't trust it. She says that it doesn't like her. Could be a "Christine" thing.

            The problem was a corroded battery ground cable. Solution-- change ALL of the cables and new battery too.
            Bart
            1960 Hard Top/430
            Thunderbird Registry Number 1231

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by tbird430 View Post

              I thought head gasket at 1st as well. That lower 2nd exhaust manifold bolt (where I can see coolant drop off the end of) is HIGHER up than the head gasket! Water/coolant can't run uphill, correct? The intake manifold & lifter valley cover both appear to be dry as a bone.
              Did you use sealer on the exhaust manifold bolts?

              Any liquid can run "uphill" if it has pressure/volume behind it. Doesn't the Nile run uphill?

              Comment


              • #8
                I only used anti-seize on the exhaust bolts.
                sigpic
                The 1960 Ford Thunderbird. The WORLD'S most wanted car....

                VTCI Member#6287.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Most enter the cylinder head water jackets.

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                  • #10
                    Really? Why doesn't the service manual mention sealing the lower exhaust manifold bolts on the 430cid then? I never knew/heard that "KULTULZ".....
                    sigpic
                    The 1960 Ford Thunderbird. The WORLD'S most wanted car....

                    VTCI Member#6287.

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                    • #11
                      I have not toyed enough with the 430 to know for sure but on an FE the lower exhaust manifold bolts do not hit water UNLESS you try and use too long a bolt! The wall at the back of the hole is pretty thin and there is water behind it. Using a bolt that is too long or using a bottoming tap to clean the holes can open the hole to water and cause a leak. It is not a major problem but if this has happened you should use a stud with thread sealer on it and a nut instead of a bolt. There is a lot of thermal activity and these bolts cycle every time you run the engine so if you use a bolt it can leak after it has been sealed. Hawkrod

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by tbird430 View Post

                        Really? Why doesn't the service manual mention sealing the lower exhaust manifold bolts on the 430cid then? I never knew/heard that "KULTULZ".....
                        My 58 MERC manual mentions it.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Gentlemen,

                          One needs to read and understand the theory of the MEL cooling system (brief description should be in shop manual).

                          Early MEL used coolant flow to heat the carburetor intake plenum rather than the more commonly used heat riser (exhaust heat) system(s).

                          This will explain details like the head gasket question and now this question. While very similiar to the FE, many details are unique to this series and the Super Duty Engine Family (heavy truck 401-477-534 gas) also introduced in 1958.

                          The coolant divertors direct coolant flow upwards and to the rear of the block so that constant rear to front coolant flow is maintained both in the intake and cylinder heads.

                          The block thermostats were deleted in the early sixties but the divertors have to be there.

                          This is not an every day passenger car engine. It had many unique features.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Well I have the 2 coolant divertors & I removed the 2 small t-stats. I also left my head gasket alone, because the old head gasket (not original) had that middle cooling port blocked just like my new Fel-Pro blue gaskets did....
                            sigpic
                            The 1960 Ford Thunderbird. The WORLD'S most wanted car....

                            VTCI Member#6287.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Here You Go-

                              Originally posted by KULTULZ View Post

                              My 58 MERC manual mentions it.
                              1958 MERCURY MAINTENANCE MANUAL

                              JULY, 1958

                              REMOVAL AND INSTALLATION OF EXHAUST MANIFOLD- ENGINE IN VEHICLE

                              1. Open radiator drain petcock and drain cooling system.

                              Installation

                              4. Note: The upper rear left exhaust manifold stud on early production engines is replaced by a screw. Coat the screw with water resistant sealer (to prevent water leakge) before installing the screw in the cylinder head.

                              7. and 8. Descibe the two lower front mounting screws and the two rear exhaust manifold mounting screws as being coated with water resistant sealer.
                              So the coolant jackets are open to the cap screw bosses and must be sealed.

                              Hopefully this will save you from disassembling the top end.

                              Good luck with it and report back the results please.

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