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Lifters not pumping up

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  • #91
    Originally posted by pbf777 View Post
    Unfortunately, as I read your post, no conclusion on the failure of the lifters has been established? ...
    Not yet. I'm having David dissect a pair of the Lunatis, he's now looking at the Howards, and I'll do the same.

    To summarize:
    1. Comp. Kevin found out that they had a production problem (although they wouldn't admit it outright).
    2. Crane. Longhair I hired screwed up, adjusted past the bottom of the plunger.
    3. Lunati. Worked fine for 5-1/2 months, failed after running at 3500 rpm. 15W-50 oil. Cause TBD.
    4. Howards. Failed immediately. 10W-30 oil. Cause TBD.

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    • #92
      Originally posted by pbf777 View Post
      Naming a specific brand supplier of components in this instance would do no good, as they are not involved in this scenario, they also claim that the then production difficulties are rectified

      This market generally offers no warranties to consumers and suffers minimal fear/repercussion if the product is somewhat less than ideal (no contract for a million units at risk or recalls), and therefore may use suppliers that would be described as "secondary standard" suppliers to the O.E.s at best.
      I disagree, word of mouth is the only recourse we have (and hopefully if bad enough, results in reduced sales and forces attention). I want to hear full details about any failure of any part, even if suspected to be caused by the user.
      59-430-HT

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      • #93
        First off I'm back, not that anybody noticed, 3 weeks Pneumonia,
        and over working. This is a Thread I had be watching with the utmost interest. I'm in agreement with OX1. Help me to understand, Is pbf777 saying, he Knows of some bad product or manufacturer, but Caveat Emptor , I must still be sick.
        ..
        Yadkin my offer on post #53 still holds. I'll throw in bottle of scotch too, get a set of bad lifters to Dave, seem to me we need all the help we can get, Yadkin sorry its has to be very frustrating.
        but if you can save someone else of the headache, that would be something at least. there are a lot of Squares looking for the outcome, a Lot. hoping you find the ans. soon
        sigpic"You're never too old to become younger".!(MW)
        Randy's Save the Bird Foundation
        In Beautiful Fallbrook California
        http://www.tbirdregistry.com/viewdat...ryNumber=60747
        !.This is the Greatest Square on Earth.!

        Comment


        • #94
          Lifters not pumping up

          Randy, I thought you were just taking a break from things. I am glad to hear that you are recovering and back at it again. Take care!

          Ray Clark - Squarebirds Administrator
          '59 Tbird "The Yellow Rose Of Texas" aka "Tweety Bird"
          "It's Hip To Be Square"
          Thunderbird Registry #33025 VTCI #11178

          Contact me via Private Message for my email address, or (Cell) 210-875-1411 (Home) 210-674-5781

          http://www.squarebirds.org/picture_gallery/TechnicalResourceLibrary/trl.htm

          Comment


          • #95
            Randy that bottle of scotch will help with your recovery: "for medicinal purposes only". Let's see what David, my new engine builder her locally, says after he dissects the Lunati lifters.

            Looking at this situation overall, there are several common denominators differentiating from a stock setup. Four times, though not all the commons are common for all four.

            1. Me, 3 out of 4. Assembling the lifters into the bores and adjusting. The 4th was Longhair, and I know exactly how he screwed up. David is doing the entire assembly so that eliminates that commonality.

            2. HV oil pump in 4/4. David recommends I go with a stock flow, high pressure. He was concerned about the HV pumping the pan dry, and based on what happened with the Lunatis that does make sense. This has the added bonus of letting me go back to a stock oil pan instead of that stupid looking T shape on the bottom end. Since we are going with 5W-30 oil, David's installing new bearings with tighter tolerances.

            3. Performance cam. I've decided that I like a smooth idle and good fuel economy better than a few extra horses at a high RPM. So I'm going back to an OEM grind, albeit a hydraulic roller, so it's going to be more than the stock 300HP anyway.

            The only issue David found with the engine was that the rings had not seated properly. David thinks that Kevin may have been too smooth with his final hone. So re-hone, new rings.

            Comment


            • #96
              I'm trying to help, not criticize. You have learned a lot from the start of this build and now you are going through a metamorphose of change through a total major overhaul. Some of your changes are in the correct direction and some simply are not.

              What materials and methods do modern engines use? <--This should be in the forefront of every one of your decisions because modern engines are guaranteed to work for at least 12,000 miles but more than not, they last 250,000 miles. Many never see the dealership from beginning to end. In manufacturing engineering, there are many thousands of hours devoted to these engines by highly educated, trained and experienced Engine Engineers. The engines go through tons of destructive testing under every load condition then we submit to the federal gov't (for economy), write the manuals, and mass produce.

              At Ford, we cut our pistons, let them 'normalize' in a constant temp room for hours, then air-gauge. They come out four different sizes. At the start of every shift a coordinator looks at the piston silos then he calls the block dept to brush the bores to the size of pistons used for that shift. Yes, tolerances are that close.

              We use moly rings and a two-step honing process to achieve a plateau finish. We hone with a conventional #280 grit silicon carbide vitrified abrasive then finish by briefly touching the bores with several strokes using an abrasive brush. Our pistons are hypereutectic alloy aluminum, not forged.

              A good engine builder will recognize these materials and methods, and use them. We don't tighten bearing clearances or use high pressure oil pumps. We use aluminum heads built to burn gasohol. We use roller cams & lifters, built to run in common conventional oil. Many of our engines (mostly overhead cam) have NO cam bearing inserts (and haven't since 1980).

              I don't know the people you are dealing with but I would RUN as far away from them as possible. Find a good FE engine builder, not someone still learning from books but real mechanics with vast experience in Ford engine rebuilding. One who actually guarantees his builds. I know you have them because Detroit has many.

              You have had lifter failures but in each case you don't know how or why they failed. The first one was a 'production problem' but we still don't know what the problem actually is for lack of inspection.
              The second was, 'adjusted past the bottom of the plunger'.
              If that caused damage to the internals it would show up immediately upon inspection.
              The third, '...Worked fine for 5-1/2 months, failed after running at 3500 rpm.' Lifters don't fail after running twice that speed or ten times the number of months.
              The fourth 'failed immediately'. This isn't coincidence any longer.

              Valve guides do not show excessive wear in 300 miles or 30,000 miles. If the guides are out of tolerance now, they were before your build. Rings only seat under a load. If you went easy on the engine It's not unusual they did not fully seat in 300 miles.

              I expect none of your bad lifters are coming my way and that's ok but... you are an administrator on this site and after hundreds of posts regarding your engine build, many of our members are asking for your help in finding the root cause of your lifter problems. Lifter examination doesn't cost money in comparison to the cost of many new sets. Proper examination will tell what went wrong. - Dave
              My latest project:
              CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

              "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
              --Lee Iacocca

              Comment


              • #97
                We all know that only guys in Michigan can build engines, and that no modifications should ever be made outside of 1960's era Ford specifications. Wait, isn't Survival Motorsports, leaders in FE modifications, in Michigan?

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by Yadkin View Post
                  We all know that only guys in Michigan can build engines, and that no modifications should ever be made outside of 1960's era Ford specifications. Wait, isn't Survival Motorsports, leaders in FE modifications, in Michigan?
                  Steve, I just laid out several modern modifications with the question, "what do modern engines use". I don't know where you got the notion about keeping it stock.

                  We have many FE gurus here:
                  • Barry Rabotnick owns Survival. He comes to us from Holley Carburetor and Federal-Mogul.
                  • John Vermeersch owns Total Performance Inc., and the Detroit Michigan chapter of the Ford Galaxie Club of America. John also runs the Motorsports Technical Hotline.
                  • Lideo Iccobelli and his brother come from wrenching on Fords for years at a major Ford dealership. They started and own, Alternative Auto Performance and are truly Ford gurus. They dyno tune and specialize in supercharger installation. Their cars are commonly found at Ubly (Michigan) Dragway.

                  I'm friends with John and Lideo but I use other engine machine shops around my house. As said, we have many.
                  My latest project:
                  CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

                  "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
                  --Lee Iacocca

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    I read Barry's book, so did Kevin. We did the oiling system modifications based on Barry's book. That was my point.

                    Kevin took a year to get my motor done, not because he's slow, but because I was on a long waiting list. He has a very long list of clients, many racers in the local circuits here. It's not the first FE he has built or engine that he has modified. His buddy Aubrey balanced the components. These guys are 2nd generation builders and bleed crude oil.

                    David is my second choice, merely because I don't want to wait a year to get this fixed and miss another summer of cruising. He's got a boatload of experience as well, and comes highly recommended.

                    You seem to think that these Southern Boys are incompetent and dumb. Detroiters made these engines, but Southerners made them faster to outrun the revenuers, and invented NASCAR.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Yadkin View Post
                      ...You seem to think that these Southern Boys are incompetent and dumb...
                      Steve, have you ever heard of Virginia Dare? I know you are from New York but Dare County is in the Outer Banks. My family started the South and we have a deep love for her. Virginia Dare (born August 18, 1587, was the first white Christian child born in the British Colonies in the New World. That predates Jamestown (1607).

                      This thread pertains to failed lifters. Got any new information about them? - Dave
                      My latest project:
                      CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

                      "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
                      --Lee Iacocca

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by simplyconnected View Post
                        This thread pertains to failed lifters.
                        Oh really?

                        Originally posted by simplyconnected View Post
                        I don't know the people you are dealing with but I would RUN as far away from them as possible.

                        Comment


                        • Southern Gentlemen can we just get this Bird to fly.
                          Last edited by YellowRose; June 6th, 2016, 09:10 PM. Reason: Moderated this post...
                          sigpic"You're never too old to become younger".!(MW)
                          Randy's Save the Bird Foundation
                          In Beautiful Fallbrook California
                          http://www.tbirdregistry.com/viewdat...ryNumber=60747
                          !.This is the Greatest Square on Earth.!

                          Comment


                          • Waiting for parts. The new cam is a two-week wait.

                            Comment


                            • Engine delivered back to the shop earlier today. They'll install it and flatbed the car back to me next week.

                              When it rains it pours. My 74 Fiat spider project just came back from the paint shop today. For the last month I'd had nothing to do but spit-shine my tools. Now my garage is overfilled.

                              Comment


                              • Yeah good for you Yadkin
                                I like the to see your garage, with a Spider
                                sigpic"You're never too old to become younger".!(MW)
                                Randy's Save the Bird Foundation
                                In Beautiful Fallbrook California
                                http://www.tbirdregistry.com/viewdat...ryNumber=60747
                                !.This is the Greatest Square on Earth.!

                                Comment

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