No announcement yet.

Lifters not pumping up

  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    I removed and cleaned the oil pan, pressurized the oil system and found good pressure to the lifter galleries. I even checked the height of the gallery holes with the necked down of the lifters, found them compatible. Not sure what good disassembling the short block would do.


    • #47
      Steve, the quoted post is #15 from Christmas Eve. Please read it a few times.

      I don't meant to be critical or judgmental but rather to help you. I believe if you had followed these steps your problems would have been identified and gone back then.

      Pointing fingers of blame helps nobody and it doesn't fix your situation. That is NOT my intent.

      Your engine gave good service for many years until it got old and tired. The only major change that happened between then and now is the overhaul. I don't know who did it and I don't want to know. The evidence proves it wasn't done properly. Before you put your engine back into service it must be done properly. If you don't, the consequences will certainly repeat themselves again.

      In previous posts, I hoped that you would grind off the 'link rivet' on one of the bad lifters so you could actually see what is causing your problems. I believe the culprit is not dirt. To be more specific, I will shoot from the hip and predict machine shop debris is in your oil galleries. There is only one sure way to know and that is to disassemble a few of your bad lifters and look.

      If you send a couple bad lifters to me I will look for you and share pictures of my findings:
      Dave Dare
      2112 N. Vermont Ave.
      Royal Oak, MI 48073-4204

      Originally posted by simplyconnected View Post
      Steve, this is Christmas Eve and I have nothing but love in my heart for you and empathy for your situation. Merry Christmas, my friend.

      I'm not totally good with the way engines are oiled but these are the facts... Oil, and everything in it, goes through your pump rotors first then it splits two ways. Either it continues to the filter or it gets dumped back to the oil pan from the pressure relief valve. If oil goes to your filter 'junk' may get trapped in the element or the internal bypass valve will open. All oil from the filter goes to your oil galleries for distribution.

      When an overhaul is performed it is absolutely imperative that all plugs be removed in the block and all ports are reamed (usually with a long brush in solvent). This should dislodge dirt in the nooks and crannies. High pressure wash is next, in both directions of each port.
      Let's stop right here. I've seen various degrees of the above 'cleanliness'. The factory cannot afford failures because they need to ship 1,000 good engines per day. Huge money is spent on machines that perform the washing process after all machining is done.

      Since 'time is money' little shops normally don't chase all the threads and they may miss a plug or two. Sometimes this is due to having many people work on an engine. Quite frankly, this is the reason I take lots of pictures during the process. I instruct the machine shop to only install cam bearings after they wash. I check cam bearing orientation then I use high pressure in all the galleries before I install all the plugs. If anything is left in a gallery it may eventually affect the working components (like roller lifters).

      A small nick in the crank from a connecting rod bolt thread will peel Babbitt bearing material off in a circle. It's made of tin, copper and antimony. With any luck the bearing will still work but where does the debris go?

      Many mechanics will only buy 'factory' short blocks, then build from there. This is where crate engines shine because they were made on the same assembly line with production engines. The equipment is state of the art and the assemblers make 1,000 good engines per day every day.

      Bottom line: Mechanical parts always leave witnesses behind. I let them speak for themselves. One of our members had a cam bolt back out. It sent aluminum pieces from the timing cover into the oil pan but the engine kept running until the fuel pump eccentric fell off. Someone forgot the Loctite. - Dave
      My latest project:
      CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

      "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
      --Lee Iacocca


      • #48
        I understand Dave, no worries.

        I do, however, need you to understand that I have immense faith in Kevin Bush and his shop. Remember that both Kevin and I read Barry Rabotkink's chapter on oil modifications for the FE, then chose a high volume pump and restrictors to the heads. Kevin also streamlined the oil galleries, threaded the block for screw-in plugs, and I assure you thoroughly cleaned the galleries again, before installing the plugs.

        I just talked with my friend Mike Boger at Classic Metal (he's working on my 74 Fiat Spider right now). He had an FE motor in a Mustang years ago and had oiling problems; he had a 9 qt pan with a high volume oil pump, and it would still run the bottom end out of oil at high RPMs. He eventually had to install a dry sump kit.

        Although I restricted the oil flow to the heads on this build, Mike thinks that I may have run the bottom end out of oil when I did my slow roll up to 94 mph, then back down to 70, the other night. That equates to about 3500 rpm. When I got off the highway a few minutes later I heard the engine making bottom end noises that I had not heard with this motor before, but the engine quited down a lot after just a few seconds, but not completely, to lifter tapping noises.

        I just cut the cover off the Wix filter that was on the engine and am bringing to over to Kevin and talk this over with him.


        • #49
          Steve, you keep bringing personalities, reputations and 'faith' into this mechanical problem. At the same time you refuse to look inside the failed lifters. I don't understand. Are you afraid of what you might find?

          You have a lifter problem, so you cut into the oil filter. Isn't it obvious, if debris were caught in the filter it could not get into your lifters? We already discussed, the oil pan, pump and filter come before the oil galleries. Oil modifications were done downstream of the filter.

          This will conclude my comments regarding your lifter problems as my suggestions are well documented. Mechanical problems are completely void of reasoning and they cannot be negotiated with. Lifters have no reputations to uphold or toes to step on. They are self evident. All the 'talk' in this world is not going to discover hard evidence or solve your problem.

          You have installed different brands of precision lifters that cost thousands of dollars and they all failed the same way. Every one of those lifters were designed to last under rigorous racing conditions for decades, not 30 days.

          Instead of investigating the cause, your remedy has been to install more new lifters and every time, the results produce more failed lifters. From an engineering standpoint, if your solutions produce the same failures, logic tells us not to repeat them. - Dave
          My latest project:
          CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

          "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
          --Lee Iacocca


          • #50
            Relying on reputations as part of the investigation process is used in every field.

            The filter paper was clean, no debris at all.

            Regarding the theory that debris was left in the oil galleries, I discussed this with Kevin, and he just shook his head. "If that were the case, it would have been flushed down stream with the previous set of lifters." I had been thinking the same thing.

            Kevin doesn't have a theory that he's comfortable with either. He notes that a lot of manufacturer's don't make their own stuff anymore, especially the low volume stuff. He thinks that there is really only two factories making them. After seeing what happened with me, he's lost confidence in both of them.

            He suggests calling Lunati with a warranty claim, then asking if I can drill out one rivet to investigate further.

            He also mentioned that I could go with a solid roller on the same cam. Just verify the application with whatever manufacturer I go with. Expect a "sewing machine" sound under the hood.


            • #51
              Regarding Mike's theory of draining the bottom end, Kevin indicated that there wasn't that much room on the top end to contain the 8 quarts in the pan.


              • #52
                The warranty was only good for 90 days. I bought these late December, 2015.


                • #53
                  Yadkin sorry to read yet another set of lifter went south .
                  I'm very curious as to why, what's in there to make them stop working , only because i'm going to rebuild one soon and think it would benefit myself to know? whats going on in the lifters?
                  if you don't mind I will pay for shipping a bad set to Dave let him take them apart, what do you got to lose, it could be Manufacture Defect. it could happen !
                  sigpic"You're never too old to become younger".!(MW)
                  Randy's Save the Bird Foundation
                  In Beautiful Fallbrook California
                  !.This is the Greatest Square on Earth.!


                  • #54
                    Thanks Randy that's not a bad idea. I got a lot of local heads scratching on this as well. I'll also send a pair to Kevin, Mike, and dissect one myself.

                    I just ordered a set of Howards 91261. Mike recommended this manufacturer. According to their site: "designed primarily for ease of maintenance and reliability". They are made in some strange place called "you sah". Summit has them on back order, shipped directly from the manufacturer. Who knows when I'll get them.

                    I also re-read Rabotnik's chapter on oiling modifications. He recommends a Melling M57HV high volume pump (about 20-25% more oil flow) to increase pressure on the bottom end. Also an ARP pump drive shaft. This is exactly what I have. When using an aftermarket rocker set, they need a lot less oil, so to keep from flooding the top end use 0.060" orifice restrictors, either at the block deck or the rocker mount pedestal. Kevin recommended that I use 0.075" restrictors at the pedestal mounts, which is what I did.

                    I borrowed the picture below to show the location of the head restrictors. That is a screw-in type. Mine are drop in; they can't go further into the hole because the passage turns, and they can't come out because the pedestal stud.

                    The last time I removed the rocker set I didn't check that the restrictors were in place; it just never occurred to me. They can't go anywhere. If so, I should have noticed. I'm going to remove the rocker set again and check. My thinking on this: This last lifter set collapsed after a 3500 RPM run. Maybe I starved them of oil?

                    When priming, I find a lot of oil coming up to the heads. I probably need to use the smaller restrictors, 0.060.
                    Attached Files


                    • #55
                      Steve because I know nothing about rebuilding engines and you need answers to your lifter problems I decided to post your problem on the FE Forum to see if I could find you some answers, other opinions or corroborating evidence (hope you don't mind). Would you be able to tell us your step by step preload process for your lifters?


                      • #56
                        OK by me.

                        Each manufacturer has different instructions for installation.
                        • Lunati: Do NOT wash in solvent, wipe the parts off, and coat the outside with oil.
                        • Crane: Clean with mineral spirits and coat lightly with oil.
                        • Comp: Soak for 30 minutes in mineral spirits, then coat the outside with oil.

                        For pre-load adjustment, I find base circle of the cam at cylinder #1 by turning the crankshaft by hand (normal rotation). When the exhaust valve begins to open, the intake is at base circle. Wiggle the pushrod up-down while slowly tightening the adjuster. When the pushrod clearance is gone, that is zero lash. Tighten 1/2 turn more while watching that the rocker arm does not move. At this point I usually turn more to find total travel available, then loosen, then reset to 1/2 turn past zero lash. Then tighten the lock nut.

                        Then I repeat the process in firing order 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8.

                        Next I adjust the exhaust valves. When the intake valve begins to close, the exhaust is at base circle. Set preload the same as the intake.

                        Valve locations on the FE:
                        Attached Files


                        • #57
                          Kevin Bush recommends finding zero lash while priming the oil pump. To do this, however, requires having open-top valve covers in order to avoid oil spilling all over the sides of the motor. Then you have to have a buddy working an electic drill down the distributor drive shaft.

                          I cut the top off an old valve cover and did this technique, and still created a huge mess. Not to mention the inconvenience of the method.

                          The last set of Lunatis that I installed I didn't use that technique at all. Instead I found zero lash with the lifters out of the box, wiped clean and lightly lubricated. I found a substantial amount of static friction (stiction) in the new lifters, and I worked that out by finding zero lash, tightening down lightly to the bottom of the plunger travel, loosening completely, and finding zero a second or third time.


                          • #58
                            Re-reading the Comp instructions, they have a paragraph on lifter failure by "particles in the oil becoming jammed between the plunger and lifter body", a common issue in newly rebuilt engines. Clearances are "typically 0.00012" (3 microns)". "Replacing the affected lifter is usually the easiest fix, as any particles should have been captured by the filter (or other lifters) after the initial running."

                            Kevin recommended I use a Fram Racing filter. After the first failure I cut that filter open, finding no debris. But it is a beefy construction for the high oil pressure. I replaced it with a standard Wix because it's just as well constructed and available over the counter.

                            I haven't been able to find much on micron ratings of various filters. I just ordered a new Wix Racing filter, but I'm not certain that I will use it.


                            • #59
                              Oil filter efficiencies are not easy to find on the interwebs. From what I could find, Wix 51515 has a nominal micron size of 21, with beta ratios of 2/20=6/20. That means that 1 - 1/2 or 50%, of particles 6 microns will be captured, 1 - 1/20, or 95%, of particle sizes 20 microns will be captured. Comparing to other filters, this looks very good.

                              The Wix 51515R has a nominal micron rating of 61. I can't find a beta ratio. I'm guessing that it doesn't filter small particles as well in a street engine as the regular 51515. I'm sending it back.


                              • #60
                                After talking to Howard's tech department, I decided to go with the Howards 91169. They are in stock and appear to be more for street use. They'll arrive on Wednesday evening. On Thursday I'll get the car hauled to the shop in Mocksville then disassemble the top of the engine to change out the lifters. Mike's engine guy will be there and help me diagnose what's going on.
                                Last edited by Yadkin; May 10th, 2016, 08:57 AM.