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  • #31
    Two questions...
    1. Why 8 quarts in an FE engine? I can see maybe one extra quart if your engine is sustaining high speeds (Interstate highway driving) because a lot of oil will be on top of both heads if your rocker arms are not restricted.
    2. Why break-in an engine with such high viscosity oil? Are you looking for higher concentrations of ZDDP for flat tappets?


    A combination of too much heavy oil will tax your engine to overcome the sheer resistance and as a result, drastically reduce gas mileage and HP.

    Modern Ford engines run hotter and they use 5W20 blended oil. So, heavier viscosity doesn't equal better lubrication. Why such drastic departures from the owner's manual? - Dave
    My latest project:
    CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

    "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
    --Lee Iacocca

    Comment


    • #32
      Back when I first approached Kevin about building this motor, the first thing he asked me after what I wanted from it was whether it had been rebuilt before. He didn't want to touch a rebuilt motor because he's had too many problems fixing other's mistakes. I assured him it was a 50 year old engine that had never been opened up.

      My goal is for it to run with a little more power and torque than the factory gave it, which meant a mild "street" cam, with the stock transmission and torque converter, very dependable and run 250,000 miles. I had read Rabotnik's book on performance FE engines, and told Kevin that I was always concerned about low oil pressure for this motor, and Rabotnik had a solution for that, and I gave him the pages of the book where this was outlined. Kevin read it and agreed that this was generally a good approach, so we ordered a high volume oil pump, he chose a restrictor size and made the modifications, including streamlining the oil passages.

      Kevin didn't like Rabotnik's recommendation to use the stock pan and add a 6th quart of oil, and recommended a 7 quart pan with a matched pickup. There was no 7 quart available when I ordered the part, so bought the Moroso 8 qt.

      Kevin included in this build his "recipe" proven to be successful to him, and he builds a lot of motors from lightly modified like mine to full race stuff. This includes generous bearing clearances and Joe Gibbs 15W-50 oil for the life of the build, not just break in.

      Comment


      • #33
        Here's what the big end looks like with the gasket partially scraped off and before I remove the oil pump.

        1. Front
        2. Screen and behind #1
        2a. Screen blow-up. That's more gasket material.
        3. Behind #2. Note how clean everything is (except for the screen)
        3a. Close up, showing that Kevin numbered all the connecting rods before he sent them off to Clemmons Speed shop for balancing.
        4. This is all I found at the bottom of the pan. On the left is grey RTV, obviously mine. On the right is a thin shard of rubber like material. It stretches like RTV, but I used all grey. It's the only one I found so far.
        Attached Files
        Last edited by Yadkin; January 5th, 2016, 09:02 PM.

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        • #34
          Here's the oil pump.

          5. Rotor and star (not sure what it's called)
          6. Housing
          7. Cover
          8. Star
          9. These were on the screen. More grey RTV and some small pieces of paper gasket.

          Bottom line, no metal in the entire assembly, just some gasket material from my previous assembly, which I should have been more careful and clean.
          Attached Files

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          • #35
            Don't beat yourself up over it. At least you know what is in your engine; something you can deal with. If these pieces got past your oil filter there is a good chance they will plug small oil holes, and there are many.
            Each rocker arm has two (to lube the tip and pushrod), each connecting rod has one (to squirt oil from the rod bearing to the bottom of the piston) and each lifter has one (to pump up the plunger).

            At this stage in the game I would pull bearing caps, remove the crank & cam and use water pressure to wash out the galleries and rocker shafts. THEN, install those $700 lifters. - Dave
            My latest project:
            CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

            "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
            --Lee Iacocca

            Comment


            • #36
              I'm not pulling the motor and undoing all Kevin's work. The pictures prove that he did a great job, took a lot of care and pride assembling this engine, even paint-indicated all the bolts as he torqued them. Far better than I could do in my garage that doubles as a wood shop, garden tool storage, and a hospice space for my dying cat. Kevin's got a clean room with stainless steel wash sinks and plenty of clean bench space.

              There are no indications that any pieces of sealer got past the filter. All that I found was either in the filter, a few on the screen and two or three on the bottom of the oil pan.

              If this crap was clogging up tiny oiling holes, soft bearing material would wear very quickly and there would be indications of that on the bottom of the pan. I know what that looks like because I've seen it before on an engine that went without oil. I'd also expect to see a lot more iron than I found on the magnet, which was basically the amount of an exposed lead on a pencil, easily attributed to break-in.

              I'd also expect to see stuff not getting lubricated on the valve train when I prime with my open top valve covers. Instead I see consistent oiling at all 16 rockers.

              These lifters were ruined by the Joker that I hired to help me last time. He's since been fired by the way, not for this but for other crap that he's screwed up. And he's no longer working as a mechanic.

              Comment


              • #37
                I got the pan back on, the engine set back down in its mounts, assembled the top end and adjusted the valves. I can see where Joker went wrong, there tends to be a bit of "stiction" on new lifters, in a box for weeks or months or longer, and when the adjusters are turned all the way out it's tricky to see when the valves are operating. No need to prime while doing this, which was Kevin's recommendation.

                Three ways to make a mistake. I found all three, apparently. Let the phone ring, ignore the outside world, focus, pay attention to what's happening and if you can't internally explain it, figure out why.

                Find zero lash carefully, look for the lifter compressing with 1/2 turn, not the valve. Any questions turn all the way down to work the preload spring and be patient to wait for the plunger to return. These Lunati's have a long preload travel (3 turns or 0.15", twice what the Cranes had. The manufacturer specifies a light preload, per my calculations 3/8 to 1/2 turn.

                Then double check with the preload springs compressed, making sure you didn't screw up the first time.

                Finally, torque the lock nuts to the adjuster manufacturer's settings instead of using "mechanics feel".

                After I got everything set, valve covers on, poured in 8 qt's of new oil and primed it. Then I found 10 degrees BTDC on the #1 cylinder and dropped the distributor in. Incredibly it dropped all the way in- first time that ever happened for me, I must be livin' right.

                I have to get back to my real job tomorrow, a long trip to Fayetteville. That will give the black RTV plenty of time to set if by chance I get back to it on Friday. More than likely will be next Tuesday or Wednesday.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Fingers crossed for you! Can't wait to hear the outcome....
                  SquareBird in BirdCity

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                  • #39
                    Thanks. Mine crossed as well.

                    I got home at a reasonable time so spent an hour or two installing the spark plug wires, fixed one that was broken, installed a connector on the distributor module wires, primed the pump, put my tools away and swept the garage. I didn't want to start it up tonight because my neighbor works early shift and needs his sleep.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Great day! Started her up, nice and quiet valve train, oil pressure at cold about 2/3 of the gauge, which I interpret as 80 psi. Warm it up, the electric fan and control keeps the coolant art around 185 +/-5 degrees F. Oil pressure drops to about 1/2 of cold. I set a new tune and adjusted the throttle plates and went for a 10 mile drive to burn off the oil spilled on the exhaust ports and headers.

                      Came home, had lunch, drove to Mocksville, took I40 two exits and experienced a lot of vibration above 70 mph. This seems to be from the driveshaft but I had that balanced. Good acceleration though, from 55 to 75 takes no time at all. I got off on the local two-lane and the car runs much better at 55 to 60. Oil pressure high, like at cold idle.

                      Very docile around town, good idle quality. I picked up my mail then went to the bank drive-through, kept the engine idling the whole time and no problem talking with the teller. She's got a '57 Chevy at home!

                      Drove it back into the garage and parked it. No stink! All I can smell is a fresh coat of paint curing on the intake manifold.
                      Last edited by Yadkin; January 8th, 2016, 07:31 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        good job keeping us inform we learn pic up stuff that I don't want
                        happening to me, if I can help it ,
                        sigpic"You're never too old to become younger".!(MW)
                        Randy's Save the Bird Foundation
                        In Beautiful Fallbrook California
                        http://www.tbirdregistry.com/viewdat...ryNumber=60747
                        !.This is the Greatest Square on Earth.!

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          I appreciate Steve's honesty. It's easy to tell folks on the world wide web about your successes but it's a hard pill to swallow when things go bad and the damage report includes hundreds or thousands of dollars lost.

                          So, kudos to Steve for his honest reports and the pictures he posts. We all learn more from failures so we can steer clear of them.

                          I hope Steve has seen the last of any troubles with his build. - Dave
                          My latest project:
                          CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

                          "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
                          --Lee Iacocca

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            This has been a difficult project for me due to the expense, but more so because of the unreliability of some local folks that I relied on. In that group I'll include COMP as they had a known issue with a parts supplier. Kevin's lengthy process to rebuild the motor meant that the warranty period was behind me when the problem revealed itself. In no sense whatsoever will I include Kevin in this group, as he had been upfront with me about his schedule and his work has proven to be first-rate. In retrospect I should have had him assemble the top end but I was impatient.

                            Next was my impatience to get the issue fixed and meet a deadline of when my Dad was passing through. He's 85 and not going to be making the trip forever- I really wanted the chance to take him for a ride in the car and his enthusiasm when I was able to do so was obvious. And this is my dad, one of the "old school" guys that doesn't show a lot of emotion. He was thrilled. In order to meet that deadline I had to next-day deliver expensive parts, then hire someone to put them in who basically lied about his expertise.

                            Am I upset about install #2 that turned out to be a failure? How can I be- as I made my dad happy, and he doesn't need to know about the problems I had with it later.

                            This isn't the first time in my life or even professional career that I've made mistakes. Any professional that tell you he's never made a mistake is either a liar or has never worked on a complicated project. As I tell my clients, I've made mistakes in the past and expect to make more of them in the future. The key is to learn from them, deal with any issues that you have caused and don't repeat them.

                            What I've learned here is similar to what I've learned professionally. Take your time. Take advice with a grain of salt. Pay attention to the machine. Rely on tactile feedback and common sense. Be patient. Double-check your work.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Well, it looks like it happened yet again. After working out my ignition problems, running the car trouble-free down the road, slow acceleration to 88 mph, slow deceleration and an extended run at 50 mph, then slow acceleration up to 94 mph and a slow deceleration, I pulled off the highway and noticed what sounded like noisy lifters. I drove the last three miles home and let the engine cool, started it up a few days later. Yup, noisy lifters again.

                              All but three lifters had collapsed either completely or totally. #1 I&E, I can get about 3/4 turn compressing the internal spring. I put in fresh oil, tried priming the lifters through the distributor, and no change on any of the lifters.

                              I'm signed up for a car show on Saturday so really want to get this fixed. I set all the valves to 3/8 turn from the bottom, started the engine and the noise was worse than before. So I tightened all up 1/8 turn, the noise was a little better, test drove for about 5 miles and couldn't stand the sound of it.

                              I'm thinking to tighten all another 1/8 turn, and if that doesn't work set all to the bottom of the internal spring travel. Can I drive 100 miles like that without major damage?

                              If I have to do that I'm going to pull the motor out and install a new RV cam and all new lifters. I'll probably go regular flat tappet. I'm getting that sick of this.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Yadkin View Post
                                I'm not pulling the motor and undoing all Kevin's work...
                                ...These lifters were ruined by the Joker that I hired to help me last time. He's since been fired by the way, not for this but for other crap that he's screwed up. And he's no longer working as a mechanic.
                                Originally posted by Yadkin View Post
                                Well, it looks like it happened yet again...
                                I pulled off the highway and noticed what sounded like noisy lifters...

                                ...Can I drive 100 miles like that without major damage?

                                If I have to do that I'm going to pull the motor out and install a new RV cam and all new lifters. I'll probably go regular flat tappet. I'm getting that sick of this.
                                No.
                                Steve, hydraulic lifters work exactly the same, roller or flat. It simply makes no difference.

                                You have gone through four sets of very expensive lifters. You know my suggestions. They are the same today as they were months ago.

                                History has proved, if you change lifters again, they will probably fail. Wise up and get to the root cause instead of continuing this lunacy. Evidently, the "joker" that helped you last time is not the cause of four sets of failed lifters.

                                If you want to find the true cause of your lifter problems follow my prior posts. You are an engineer so you know there is nothing mystical about simple mechanics because the evidence always speaks for itself. - Dave
                                My latest project:
                                CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

                                "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
                                --Lee Iacocca

                                Comment

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