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  • #16
    Power Window Relay

    Tim, when it comes time to work on the convertible top there is more information in the TRL on working on 1960-1966 Convertible Tops. Perhaps there is more information in that. As for that top, the best thing anyone who owns a '58-'66 and beyond Convertible can do, is to "exercise" that top about every couple or weeks or so. Put it up, take it down, a few times before you put it away again. Most troubles with them come from leaving them in one position or the other, and NOT exercising them....

    Ray Clark - Squarebirds Administrator
    '59 Tbird "The Yellow Rose Of Texas" aka "Tweety Bird"
    "It's Hip To Be Square"
    Thunderbird Registry #33025 VTCI #11178

    Contact me via Private Message for my email address, or (Cell) 210-875-1411 (Home) 210-674-5781

    http://www.squarebirds.org/picture_gallery/TechnicalResourceLibrary/trl.htm

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    • #17
      Yea I give it a work out here and there. I owned some Jag Xk8's, if let them sit they acted up very quickly, quit driving them because of that, and they are much more modern.
      Tim
      1962 Conv Tbird
      1993 Miata LE
      1994 Miata

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      • #18
        well new relay has been ordered.
        Tim
        1962 Conv Tbird
        1993 Miata LE
        1994 Miata

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        • #19
          Per diagram in post 7 (bottom one as I have power windows and seats) and looking at it and my car and googling anything I could find on this I see what a prev owner person did.
          On my relay the spade on the right is is there, so they put the red wire (194) as it should be. They spliced 938 black that was to plugged in the 938 left male spade into 14678, literally cut the wire down the middle and BENT the female spade into and around the wire and put tape around it.
          This wiring stuff is hard. But once I get my new relay hopefully all I need it to tape up the cut wire and hook it all up right. I assume they spliced wires because they did not want to bother with a new relay once that male space broke off???
          The 14303 on the diagram appears to be an engine to body ground. I do not have that wire. Is that important?
          Last edited by blue62tbird; May 9th, 2018, 07:51 PM.
          Tim
          1962 Conv Tbird
          1993 Miata LE
          1994 Miata

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          • #20
            Originally posted by blue62tbird View Post
            The 14303 on the diagram appears to be an engine to body ground. I do not have that wire. Is that important?
            Yes, it's very important. If you don't have one install one. It doesn't have to go where the diagram shows as long as it goes from the engine to somewhere on the firewall.

            John
            John Pizzi - Squarebirds Administrator

            Thunderbird Registry #36223
            jopizz@verizon.net 856-779-9695

            http://www.squarebirds.org/picture_gallery/TechnicalResourceLibrary/trl.htm

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            • #21
              based on the diagram and the wire grounding to the small screw that holds the window relay in place the wire is rather small.
              Should I use a strap or a thick gauge wire? Where should I bolt it too on the motor?
              Tim
              1962 Conv Tbird
              1993 Miata LE
              1994 Miata

              Comment


              • #22
                Thicker is better when it comes to grounds. A 6 or 8 gauge wire will work. There's a bolt hole on the back of the passenger side head. That's the normal place for it but anywhere on the engine is fine.

                John
                John Pizzi - Squarebirds Administrator

                Thunderbird Registry #36223
                jopizz@verizon.net 856-779-9695

                http://www.squarebirds.org/picture_gallery/TechnicalResourceLibrary/trl.htm

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                • #23
                  I read up on grounds and saw many folks saying that they ground a lot on their cars, more then just what the manf may do. Where should I been looking for fact ground on my car? Is it wise to maybe add a few more. Appears bad or lack of ground can cause electrical issues?
                  Tim
                  1962 Conv Tbird
                  1993 Miata LE
                  1994 Miata

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                  • #24
                    What do modern cars use? <--This is always my 'go-to' question.
                    Modern cars use wire harnesses with a copper ground wire included, from the battery to the trunk. They do not depend on spot welds or carbon-steel to return power to the battery. Look at your daily driver because it represents many years of improvements in automotive technology.

                    I run two stranded copper ground wires (and so do modern cars). Both start at the battery NEG post.
                    • A #6-AWG wire stretches from the battery to the starter motor area with a 'vibration loop' between the engine and the body. Bell housing bolts work well for this connection.
                    • A #10 bare wire works for the body but I normally use #8. It stretches from the battery NEG to the trunk. Along the way, I branch off with 'taps' for the dash area (including power windows), another for power seats, convertible top motor, trunk lid, fuel tank and tail light housings.


                    If you anticipate connecting a trailer, 115-volt power inverter or a boomin' stereo, run another #10 power wire along side the ground wire. Fuse this wire at 30-amps at the battery POS terminal. - Dave
                    My latest project:
                    CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

                    "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
                    --Lee Iacocca

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                    • #25
                      Well new relay installed wired per diagram in this thread. Seems to be working. I shut off the car and the dummy lights and the blower fan stay on with key in or put of ign like it did on the old relay. All windows, top work fine. I start up car and it runs, all ok the dummy lights go off as usual. Funny thing is if I leave all the wires OFF the relay everything still works as should. If I reverse the red and black wires on the spades on the relay all works correctly.
                      Seems to me something must hacked up stream of this relay that is allowing everything to work.
                      Tim
                      1962 Conv Tbird
                      1993 Miata LE
                      1994 Miata

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        well if I wire the relay correctly when I turn off the car the dummy lights stay on. So I am just leaving the black wire off the spade on the relay. Seems to make zero diff in functionality with anything on the car.
                        Tim
                        1962 Conv Tbird
                        1993 Miata LE
                        1994 Miata

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by blue62tbird View Post
                          Funny thing is if I leave all the wires OFF the relay everything still works as should.

                          The relay is a safety device to prevent a possible fire if the wires get overloaded. I suggest you try and find out where the previous owner wired around it. Most likely it's under the hood. Remove the tape on the harness close to the relay. It should be obvious where it's bypassed.

                          John
                          John Pizzi - Squarebirds Administrator

                          Thunderbird Registry #36223
                          jopizz@verizon.net 856-779-9695

                          http://www.squarebirds.org/picture_gallery/TechnicalResourceLibrary/trl.htm

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                          • #28
                            I will check it. Thanks for the advice.
                            Tim
                            1962 Conv Tbird
                            1993 Miata LE
                            1994 Miata

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                            • #29
                              Tim, I didn't have time to properly address your electrical problem before. Now, it's raining in Detroit, so I do.

                              A little background first... Your key switch is only designed to handle only so much current. With the additional load of Electric Windows, Electric Seats and Convertible Top, Ford used the key switch to control a relay. In turn, the relay passes 30-amps around the key switch. So, a small signal turns on a much larger signal.

                              When the key is turned 'ON' (not START), the key switch does all the normal dash functions AND it energizes the Window Safety Relay coil. Since the relay coil draws next to nothing, the relay coil puts no additional load on the key switch. The relay contacts pass 30-amps of power for the windows when the coil is energized. Of course, when the key is off, the contacts open, which shuts off power downstream to the power window switches.

                              Now to your relay wiring...
                              Your picture shows NO RELAY, just an empty space. Instead, they simply tied the power seats/window wire to the hot lead coming from the circuit breaker.

                              When they also tied the key switch wire in WITH the hot lead, that backfeeds every connection on the key switch including dash lights to power that is on all the time. They will never turn off! You need a relay (any relay with contacts that will safely pass 30-amps) for your Power Windows.


                              Here are three diagrams (one is a duplicate of John's). One shows the physical relay and wires, another is a continuation of those wires. The last is the electrical schematic equivilant of the physical wiring. When you see this in the schematic, "-->>--" these are bullet connectors. The male (plug) '-->' and female (receptacle) '>--' halves are connected. The power side is usually the female connector, like in your house.
                              • One wire, the coil wire (194-RED), comes from the key switch power and it is small.

                              • One wire (all by itself) comes from the circuit breaker at the starter solenoid and is hot at all times. The wiring diagram calls it 170. The other 170-RED simply connects with that wire and it continues inside the car for Power Seats. These wires can carry 30-amps so they are thick.

                              • 938-BLACK is the 'load side' of the contacts and it only turns on Power Windows when the key switch is turned to the 'ON' position.


                              If you need to call me, my number is (248) 544-8834. - Dave
                              Attached Files
                              Last edited by simplyconnected; May 21st, 2018, 10:23 PM.
                              My latest project:
                              CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

                              "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
                              --Lee Iacocca

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                I am 99.99 % sure I have it wired as show in the diagram.
                                They did not hack any of the wires other then when they put the 938 wire into the spliced 170 black wire that connects with the 170 thicker red on the middle post of the relay. **** the spade as you can see in the pic was still there, they did not cut it off, they just bent it a little around 170 black and taped her up.
                                I will check it again. I just remember after wiring it correctly after I turned the car off the dummy lights and a fan would stay on with the key off and or out.
                                If I pulled black spade wire those dummy lights went away, I connect wire back up I took off relay no lights until next time I started car and turned it off.
                                I will look it all over again tonight and make sure the sequence of what is happening is what I am saying here. I have not messed with in a few days, to rainy to drive.
                                Thanks guys.
                                Tim
                                1962 Conv Tbird
                                1993 Miata LE
                                1994 Miata

                                Comment

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