Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

changing master cylinder from single to dual-stage

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • changing master cylinder from single to dual-stage

    After seeing all the discussion on the disc brake conversion, I am on board with ditching the old single-stage unit. Being a rookie gearhead, I need your assistance...

    Here is a photo of my current cylinder.



    My car has 15" rims, and drum brakes all around. It does not have power brakes. It stops pretty well actually, and converting to front discs sounds like a great plan, but that is going to have to be a project for another year...

    So now... what exactly do I need to buy in order to have a dual-stage unit in my car? And maybe some how-to-install directions would be great as well....
    http://www.tbirdregistry.com/viewdat...ryNumber=33517

  • #2
    changing master cylinder from single to dual-stage

    Hi Greg,

    I had hoped that one of our more technically inclined members would jump on this and answer your questions. Since you have been reading the other thread, you should have gained a lot of information from it. Maybe simplyconnected or one of the others who have been down this road before will jump in here.

    I think all of the disk brake conversion companies also offer a dual MC/power booster system for sale. Some are more expensive than others. You could also buy the necessary parts at an auto parts store. You can also find them for sale on eBay. One person who sells a whole range of MC/Power Boosters is oldirishdave through his eBay store. Here is the link to that.

    http://stores.ebay.com/The-Oldirishmans-autoparts

    I have talked with him, as you know, and find him to have a lot of knowledge about this subject. He said that an 8" system is a better one for us with these heavy Big Fords and Tbirds, instead of a 7" one. I am thinking of getting his 1952-1959 Ford Mercury Edsel chromed dual MC/Power Booster version. Why it will not work on a 1960 Squarebird I do not know. That is something I should ask him. Maybe it is because he thought that all 1960's came with a dual MC and power booster from the factory. Not so. Just the later models. He also has this unit in a regular un-chromed finish at a lesser price. Me, if I am going to do this, want the chromed version to add to my engine dress up kit. There have been some comments about using non-Ford products on ones Tbird. You might be able to find the right Ford products through an auto parts store.

    I think that simplyconnected is correct when he says if you are going to go to a dual MC/power booster and disk brake conversion, do it all at the same time. So you will want to take that into consideration. As to how to do it, there are a number of people here who can take you through it step by step, and we also have that information in Technical Tips. First go here to the temporary Technical Tips website. (Everyone should bookmark this website)

    http://squarebirds.fortunecity.com/Technical/master.htm

    Here you will find the 1958-1960 Disk Brake Conversion technical article. Unfortunately, I have not been able to recover all the pictures that are missing. With this modification, it is a lot more involved, as you will see.

    Also, keep in mind that if you go to the John Draxler Tbird Ranch Technical Tips, (click on the link to it and go down the left side to the Disk Brake Conversion link) there you will find the information on his parts kit he markets. With that kit, and the right drums, late '70's Torino, Ranchero, and maybe Granada rims. John says you can use your factory spindles on your Squarebird with those rims. If I have it correct, Lance at SW Tbird also said you can use your factory spindles with the late '70's Lincoln Versailles, Granada, LTD II rims. Also ;98 Ford Ranger rims might be usable, '75 Granada and up to 1983, I think it was, and '74 Mavericks. Finding the right rims these days might be tough as a lot of them have been crunched.

    Well, this is a start. Others might be able to add to this. Rather than trying to get all the parts needed yourself, unless you are a very good mechanic, the best way to go might be buying one of the disk brake conversion kits, MC and Power Booster conversions from one of the previously mentioned companies. Me, as far as the disk brake conversion goes, I plan on using John Draxlers kit, and probably the MC/Power Booster from oldirishdave. Good luck when you do it, and hopefully, we will have a complete step by step procedure that is current and has all the pictures. I think someone else on here did do that, but I forget who..

    Ray Clark - Squarebirds Administrator
    '59 Tbird "The Yellow Rose Of Texas" aka "Tweety Bird"
    "It's Hip To Be Square"
    Thunderbird Registry #33025 VTCI #11178

    Contact me via Private Message for my email address, or (Cell) 210-875-1411 (Home) 210-674-5781

    http://www.squarebirds.org/picture_gallery/TechnicalResourceLibrary/trl.htm

    Comment


    • #3
      My dad ran a dual rsvr m/cyl on the TB when he had it with the drum brks. I think it did more harm than good. The orig syst is designed to work off the sngl unit. The wheel cyls are different frt to rr to displace the fluid correctly.
      The 65 TB had a singl unit w/frt discs and those thos brakes were every bit as good as my SBC stuff with WAY less pedal effort.

      As far as wheels, look at 70'ish Mustang Couger etc. They are plentiful and 14x6 OR 14x7. I have 14x7's.
      John Byers
      1960 Convertible (Orig owner)
      sigpic

      Comment


      • #4
        [quote=byersmtrco;38823]My dad ran a dual rsvr m/cyl on the TB when he had it with the drum brks. I think it did more harm than good. The orig syst is designed to work off the sngl unit. The wheel cyls are different frt to rr to displace the fluid correctly.
        The 65 TB had a singl unit w/frt discs and those thos brakes were every bit as good as my SBC stuff with WAY less pedal effort.[quote]

        Interesting, John. Do you know if your dad had a proportioning valve with the dual mc? If so, might it have not been adjusted properly?

        I don't know about the '60s, but the '59s have 1-3/32" bore wheel cylinders on the front axle and 29/32" bore wheel cylinders on the rear axle. That gives a 60/40 bias to the front. I don't see why a dual resevoir mc would change the fluid pressure to the two axles unless there was a constriction of some kind.
        sigpic "Old Betsy" - my '59 convertible J9YJ116209 Thunderbird Registry #33341

        Comment


        • #5
          Dakota, if you are going with a new master cylinder, get it in a combination with a power booster. The whole combo as a unit (in chrome) costs $210 + $25 shipping from eBay.

          A dual M/C is included as well as all the hardware to make it work with the power booster.

          Your original setup has all the brake lines going to a tee next to your steering box. If you keep your drum brakes, unscrew the rear line off the tee plugging the hole with a double-flare plug. Connect a 3/16" double-flare union on that same line with an extension to your new M/C. Also, replace the old line running from the tee to the M/C, because the new setup will need a longer line. That's it.

          If you go to disk/drum, you will need to re-plumb all the work you just did, adding a proportioning valve, and two new lines. That's why I recommend you do all your changes at once.

          RATIOS:
          Your original brakes have two different sized brake cylinder bores and different shoe widths, from front to rear. Your manual M/C is probably a 7/8" bore. Ford tried to match correct brake ratio and pedal pressure with this combination.

          When you go to power-assist brakes, your M/C will be a 1" bore, pushing more fluid with less pedal movement. Normally this would require more foot pressure, but now we have a power booster which makes foot pressure even easier. Disk brakes require hundreds of pounds more pressure than drums. No problem for the power booster, but the rear drum brakes need to be controlled by a proportioning valve.

          Front disk brakes stop far better than drum, there's no comparison. Everyone who has made the change agrees on this point. Let us know when you're ready for disks. - Dave

          Edit: John Byers' Dad probably replaced a 7/8"-bore single M/C with a 1"-bore dual M/C. That would make the pedal pressure much harder without a power booster. To the driver's foot, things just got worse instead of better. Single and dual master cylinders displace exactly the same volume/psi at the same foot pressure, if they are the same bore size.
          Last edited by simplyconnected; November 9th, 2009, 01:44 AM.
          My latest project:
          CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

          "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
          --Lee Iacocca

          Comment


          • #6
            drum master cyl. w/o booster

            Will the master cylinder that comes with the booster fit the factory power brake booster ? My booster works fine , I'd just like to find a dual master cylinder to fit it. When it comes time to redo the brakes I'll upgrade to disks,but for now the drums are ok,I'd just like the dual circuit brakes for safety reasons.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by wfopossum View Post
              ...My booster works fine , I'd just like to find a dual master cylinder to fit it...
              That's unusual. Most of the original boosters bit the dust decades ago. It seems, Ford didn't have the materials we use, today.

              Send us a picture of your booster and M/C. Is your M/C four-hole or two-hole mount? - Dave
              My latest project:
              CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

              "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
              --Lee Iacocca

              Comment


              • #8
                4 hole master cylinder

                It's a 4 hole master cylinder,I don't know if it's the original booster or not,it seems to work good, I'll try to post a pic of it tommorow.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I was looking around for a 4-hole dual M/C (and couldn't find one) when I ran across a company that makes adapter plates. Then I looked at prices. The plate was ~$50 +.

                  I'm not one to throw parts at a problem, but I have to say, these new combos are CHEAP at $200. I remember when booster units were $300, by themselves. Old replacement M/C units are $79-$100, if you can find one.

                  My suggestion is to buy a new combo unit. They are guaranteed for life:
                  "All MBM products are guaranteed for life from the date of purchase, to be free of defects in materials and workmanship. This guarantee is void in the event of misuse, neglect, improper installation or misdiagnosis. At our discretion, we will repair or replace any product found to be defective subject to our inspection and approval. "
                  My latest project:
                  CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

                  "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
                  --Lee Iacocca

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    It's not looking too good for wedging a booster/dual master cylinder assembly in my car. The 460's valve covers seem to be too close.

                    I'll measure the bore on my current m/c later, but according to my '58's manual, the power brake m/c bore was 1.125" and the standard unit was 1.00".


                    Cut n Pasted from eBay:



                    7" Dual Diaphragm Brake Booster & Master Cylinder Combo - 1" Bore

                    Info:

                    Compact, for installation under floor or on firewall of almost any vehicle. Booster is new and measures only a small 7" in diameter. Re-manufactured iron master cylinders are suited for disc-disc or disc-drum combinations. Master cylinders feature two 3/8"-24 inverted flare ports on each side (plugs are included for ports not in use). Parts are brand new in box (stock photo shown).


                    (Speedway Part #910-31411)

                    Specs:

                    • 7" Booster Specs:
                      • Pushrod-to-mounting flange is 5-1/2"
                      • Four bolts on 3-3/8" centers
                      • 5" thick from master cylinder mount to firewall face
                      • 4" long firewall mount face to end of pushrod
                      • Pushrod stud is 3/8" fine thread
                    • Master Cylinder Specs:
                      • (4) qty 3/8"-24 outlet ports (2 plugs included)
                      • 8" from mount to outer edge


                    7" Dual Diaphragm Brake Booster & Master Cylinder Combo - 1" Bore

                    Info:

                    Compact, for installation under floor or on firewall of almost any vehicle. Booster is new and measures only a small 7" in diameter. Re-manufactured iron master cylinders are suited for disc-disc or disc-drum combinations. Master cylinders feature two 3/8"-24 inverted flare ports on each side (plugs are included for ports not in use). Parts are brand new in box (stock photo shown).


                    (Speedway Part #910-31411)

                    Specs:

                    • 7" Booster Specs:
                      • Pushrod-to-mounting flange is 5-1/2"
                      • Four bolts on 3-3/8" centers
                      • 5" thick from master cylinder mount to firewall face
                      • 4" long firewall mount face to end of pushrod
                      • Pushrod stud is 3/8" fine thread
                    • Master Cylinder Specs:
                      • (4) qty 3/8"-24 outlet ports (2 plugs included)
                      • 8" from mount to outer edge
                    Attached Files
                    http://www.tbirdregistry.com/viewdat...ryNumber=33517

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Greg, this setup is missing some very important components (brake pedal rod and firewall bracket), and it is very expensive.

                      Your Speedway picture shows a booster, a Corvette-style M/C, and a 'bench bleeder' kit with four booster mounting nuts. Old Irish Dave sells these with a brake pedal rod and bracket in CHROME for around US$200, but there are fitment issues with the bracket.

                      The only complete bolt-on system for Squarebirds, is offered by ABS Power Brake Systems for about US$275 (+s/h) with a zinc plating.

                      Your original M/C sits very low on the firewall. It's too close to the steering column shift lever for a power booster, but a firewall bracket will offset the booster making it high enough to clear everything just fine. Ford offered this bracket in a dealership conversion kit back in the day.

                      Seven inches is too small, but a two-stage 8" will work nicely. Don't use a M/C under 1" bore. To help the rear wheel 'lockup tendancy', I installed a new pair of smaller 3/4" wheel cylinders, and got rid of the 7/8" originals. 3/4" (Wagner or Bendix) wheel cylinders are common to many millions of cars of all makes.

                      Howard Prout is the man. He designed and installed his own bracket and brake pedal rod. He used his setup all summer long:
                      http://www.squarebirds.org/vbulletin...ead.php?t=5023 - Dave
                      My latest project:
                      CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

                      "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
                      --Lee Iacocca

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        let's say I only want to replace the single m/c with a dual unit for now...

                        Will this work if I make a mounting plate for it?
                        I suppose I would then need an adjustable pushrod?
                        Attached Files
                        http://www.tbirdregistry.com/viewdat...ryNumber=33517

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Dakota Boy View Post
                          let's say I only want to replace the single m/c with a dual unit for now...
                          There are lots of ways to do this job, but let's make this conversion as easy as possible.

                          Question: How many times do you want to plumb your system and re-bleed it?

                          The idea of having a dual master cylinder is for Safety; one half is plumbed to the front brakes, and the other half operates the rears.

                          If you go to front disks, you will need a combination proportioning valve plumbed to the front and rear cylinders.

                          If you add a power booster, your newly fabricated adaptor plate will be replaced by a firewall bracket, your master cylinder will be relocated to a much higher position, and both M/C brake lines will be too short by about 10".

                          See the point? It is much cheaper/faster/easier to do your whole system at the same time. Do it once, do it right, and be done with it. Every time I did a conversion, I plumbed the whole car. When you get the tools out and start making inverted flares, a couple more to do the entire car makes sense. So do, 'new brake lines'. (BTW, I use rustproof lines and brass fittings because I live in the Rust Belt). I also replaced all three rubber brake hoses.

                          Now my classic car stops on a dime, just like any modern car. Never any brake fade or pull... I take my hands off the wheel, do a healthy 'emergency stop', and the car stops straight as an arrow. They're fine for the rear, but I will never go back to front drum brakes. - Dave
                          My latest project:
                          CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

                          "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
                          --Lee Iacocca

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Well, I guess the dual M/c will have to wait until NEXT winter when I rebuild the front end.

                            Last winter: tons and tons of interior work, rebuilt the windows, door seals, many, many things I cant even remember at this point; the whole nine yards.

                            This winter: everything underneath the car from the firewall back has been removed. Wire-wheeling the underbody and spraying with a thin coat of Permatex undercoat (you shouldve seen how dirty I was this afternoon). Everything underneath will be repainted. And a new gas tank.... And a new gas line.... And all new rear brake lines/hose running up to the ol' single m/c.


                            This was why I was thinking about ditching the single m/c; but, as you say, it would be best to wait until I can do the discs on the front. Otherwise, I'm just throwing away money on a dual m/c that will be removed and sitting on the shelf once the discs get installed.
                            http://www.tbirdregistry.com/viewdat...ryNumber=33517

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Here's some pics of what's keeping me out of trouble this winter...

                              Before... and after using the wire-wheel.

                              some new undercoating where the new gas tank will live....

                              and a pile of nasty rust, dirt, and undercoating removed by the wire-wheel...
                              Attached Files
                              http://www.tbirdregistry.com/viewdat...ryNumber=33517

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X