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  • #31
    Originally posted by simplyconnected View Post
    Now, I would like to see a picture of the inside of the generator housing where the posts come through. Show me where the Field wires attach to the post, and where they attach to each other.
    I hope I provide the right pictures, are these what you mean?
    (Didn't cleaned it yet, just wiped off some carbon at the wires)
    Attached Files

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    • #32
      The picture is very clear

      Hey Fellas, it's very clear now. all parts in the generator are now identified. I sent my generator to Mr. Wilson because after looking at it my fields were bad. The coil wires were unraveling. When he got my Generator he said the field coil was toast. I got a new generator with all new parts. It's funny, now I know everything about the generators inside workings I am ready to repair one. It just so happens I have a spare generator in my garage. My question to the group is where do we get the repair parts. I want to thank all the guy's for sending in pic's and for excellent explaination of the various parts inside the generator it self( no one high jacked the thread) We are learning as we go. Great job guy's this is really great! thanks so much. You have removed all the fear and doubt.

      Comment


      • #33
        Marco, your pictures are excellent. You could use them to write a manual about, "maintaining the typical Ford generator." They show how one wire comes out of the Field post, goes through the first coil, and you have pulled back the sleeve which reveals the crimped splice between both field coils. The bare wire is the 'return' wire from the last coil, which attaches to the ground post. A perfect pictorial of both field windings connected in series. It is simple, now that you can see everything. It is easy to understand why these parts are still available.

        Everything looks very good so far. Be careful as you prod around those solid wires. Try not to flex them too much. It is time to take your resistance meter readings before you re-assemble.

        As a side note: Ever wonder how they reverse the polarity fo a generator or starter? (My 1955 Ford had Positive Ground.)

        The direction of generator shaft rotation has nothing to do with the output. (Same goes for the starter motor. If you switched your battery wires, the starter still goes in the same direction.) Polarity is a magnetic relationship between the field, and the armature. If you switch either the Field wires OR the Armature wires, the polarity will reverse because the magnetism polarity reverses.

        Now that we can see inside the gen case, if the two wires on the Field and Ground posts were switched, the generator would put out Negative 12 volts and the ground would be Positive. It's that simple. - Dave

        Parts can be purchased in a HOST of places. All generator repair shops sell parts, so do;
        tee-bird.com
        macsautoparts.com
        dennis-carpenter.com
        Obsolete and Classic Auto Parts

        I'm sure many exclusive Thunderbird stores have generator and starter parts as well.
        My latest project:
        CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

        "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
        --Lee Iacocca

        From: Royal Oak, Michigan

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by birdbrain View Post
          Hey Fellas, it's very clear now. all parts in the generator are now identified. You have removed all the fear and doubt.
          Rodney, great to read your thoughts!
          In my belief all credits go to Dave on this, he's the one who just wrote the manual he referred to below.......
          (Good luck on repairing your spare one, take your time and enjoy it)

          Originally posted by simplyconnected View Post
          You could use them to write a manual about, "maintaining the typical Ford generator." It is simple, now that you can see everything.
          Dave, thanks for your comments and knowledge so far!
          It's time to create an overview and translate it in Dutch. Although I've a little spare time the upcoming period, I will take it step-by-step with your suggestions to re-assemble it. To be continued..............

          Comment


          • #35
            Birdbrain, Dutchbird, and everyone who gleans knowledge from this thread,
            We Ford Car restorers cannot have enough friends who freely help each other in their ‘labor of love’. The real kudos do not go to me, but to my mentors and journeymen. They offered mechanical and electrical genius. I am only a messenger on their behalf; none of these ideas are mine.

            Personally and as a Ford Car restorer, I know how hard it is to work on our 50+ year-old cars here, in the USA. But, to see Dutchbird translate and apply this thread to restoring and understanding his generator in the Netherlands, humbles me greatly. We Americans can learn much from Marco's perseverance and persistence. He did all the bull-work and shared fabulous pictures with all of us. I appreciate and respect everyone who personally works on their car, even as a hobby. A part of the restorer is truly in his restoration.

            Rodney, now is a perfect time to bust out that old generator and fix it. If you enjoy working on this stuff, the final result is very rewarding.

            As simple as the generator is, what’s happening inside is still magical. We understand how magnetism is related to electricity, but after 200 years nobody is able to explain the science of why it happens. - Dave
            My latest project:
            CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

            "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
            --Lee Iacocca

            From: Royal Oak, Michigan

            Comment


            • #36
              It's a good say in Birdland!

              Well fella's, I have everything back on and hooked up and the big red light came on....Oh forgot to Polarize ...puff the light went out. The lights are bright, the radio plays and the heater blows. It's good to be back in my bird. Thanks again for all your help. There is an all Ford meet here in maryland this Saturday, I just might roll in and make an appearance, At this time of the year there are alot of shows here as most of the charitable organizations are raising money for next year. I try to help as much as I can because these cars draw people like fly's. I know you guy's see what I mean as the T-bird is one of the finest design's known to man.

              One of the greatest things I get to enjoy is night driving. When you drive one of these cars at night with the dash glowing...the radio playing and that 352 humming there is nothing like it! The air flowing though a true hard top and with no worries, it's to good to be true...happy motoring!

              Comment


              • #37
                A great thread and great collection of supporting posts!!

                If someone likes the idea of being self sufficient in terms of keeping their charging system going, consider getting a back up generator and regulator. You can buy generators on Ebay for next to nothing. You might have to do some work to get them in working condition but it's at your own leisure; then if your field or armature shorts out (non-repairable failure) you can have the system repaired as quickly as you want. Murphy's Law says these kinds of failures only happen on the Thursday before a holiday weekend when you really wanted to use the TBird.

                I bought two on Ebay for under $20 plus shipping (probably near as much...tried to forget about it). The first one needed brushes but worked. The second one had a broken + post (repairable) but had inside it a brand-new field and a good armature.

                I'm kind of old-school like some of you.I would rather keep the generator intact and as Ford sold it. I have no added electrical needs save a few light bulbs so it gets the job done fine. The AM radio and dash lights on at night put me back in 1958...

                What I would like to do is set up a rig where I could bench test a generator and regular to check the output. I figure a washing machine motor (1800 RPM?), appropriate size pulley and some brackets ought to do it. Anyone done such a thing?? 1800 RPM is representative of the engine speed these cars run, I believe.

                Dave, you mentioned 55 Fords with positive ground... the 55 TBirds are, I believe, 6 volt positive ground. Polarity aside, how would their generator compare to ours?

                thanks!
                john
                1958 Hardtop
                #8452 TBird Registry
                http://www.tbirdregistry.com/viewdat...tryNumber=8452


                photo: http://www.squarebirds.org/users/joh...d_June2009.jpg
                history:
                http://www.squarebirds.org/users/johng/OCC.htm

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by JohnG View Post
                  Dave, you mentioned 55 Fords with positive ground... the 55 TBirds are, I believe, 6 volt positive ground. Polarity aside, how would their generator compare to ours?
                  Good question, John. The 6-volt gen had 6-volt field coils. 12-volt gen's are identical in current (35-40 amps) to 6-volt generators. There is no distinction between brushes, springs, posts, etc. Little birds had the exact same power demand as Ford Cars, so the electrical is no different.

                  The big difference is in power delivery between 6 and 12-volts. Power (in watts) equals volts times amps.

                  6-volts times 40-amps equals 240-watts. That's all you get with the car running at 40-mph. In perspective, that's nearly FIVE 50-watt light bulbs.
                  12-volts times 40-amps equals 480-watts; over NINE 50-watt light bulbs. So, for the same physical sized generator the 12-volt puts out twice as much.

                  I converterted my '55 Customline to 12-v, neg ground alternator, but I have used the original 6-v starter on 12-volts for years. My Y-Block cranks faster and starts easier, using 12-volts.

                  Hope this answers your question. - Dave
                  My latest project:
                  CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

                  "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
                  --Lee Iacocca

                  From: Royal Oak, Michigan

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    I followed the guidance in this string of posts and got the generator in my 60 working today! It turned out to be worn insulation on the internal field wire just after the terminal. It was grounded out on the long generator bolt. I also had a bad voltage regulator. It is so nice to see the generator light off when she's running. Now to get all the lights working. Thanks for all the information on this post.

                    Vern

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by vernz View Post
                      I followed the guidance in this string of posts and got the generator in my 60 working today! It is so nice to see the generator light off when she's running. Thanks for all the information on this post.
                      Congrats on your job!!!

                      Very nice to read another Bird is flying as meant to!
                      (Mine is unfortunately still in progress, but family first.......)

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by simplyconnected View Post
                        It sure looks like it, Vern. To make sure, you are talking about the FIELD wire getting too hot, not the armature wire, right?

                        A shorted field winding will play **** with a regulator. Use a resistance check for your Field windings. Under full load, the FIELD should pull about an amp or two...

                        Just a thought; make sure you didn't ground your field wires inside the case, when you put it together. It's easy to pinch a wire, there isn't a lot of room...
                        Originally posted by vernz View Post
                        I followed the guidance in this string of posts and got the generator in my 60 working today! It turned out to be worn insulation on the internal field wire just after the terminal. It was grounded out on the long generator bolt. I also had a bad voltage regulator. It is so nice to see the generator light off when she's running. Now to get all the lights working. Thanks for all the information on this post.
                        Vern
                        I'm glad to assist, but Marco gets the big applause for showing all those good pictures. Sure is nice to know what to expect before you jump in.

                        Vern, I'm sorry your regulator went out. I'm SURE your grounded Field wire was the cause. The field wire could use a 5-amp fuse mounted at the regulator. If the wire shorts, the fuse will protect and save your regulator (and about $50). Ever estimate how much you saved by finding the problem for yourself? A garage might tell you anything. Now, you know the real problem (in addition to the broken brush spring). - Dave
                        My latest project:
                        CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

                        "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
                        --Lee Iacocca

                        From: Royal Oak, Michigan

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Dave,

                          The interesting thing about the voltage regulator is that my car came with a spare. I put the spare on the car while I was trying to figure out what was wrong. After I fixed the generator I held the field wire against battery and measured armature output. Sure enough it went to full output which showed the regulator was bad. (you nay remember that when I did that before fixing the generator the field wire got instantly too hot to hold). I put the original regulator back in and everything works now. I would have thought that the original regulator would have been fried after being hooked up to the grounded field wire for who know how many years.

                          Vern

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            A small update from Europe:
                            I take the time on my first 'generator-experience' (in the little sparetime I have right now) and have cleaned it the best way I could so far. Only some little paintjobs in the near future to complete it.
                            Almost ready to re-assemble and go on from there.......
                            Attached Files

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Ford Generator Resistance checks for 6-volt and 12-volt
                              Set multi-meter for the lowest OHM scale (200-ohms)

                              The only difference between the six and twelve volt generators is the Field Coils

                              Field Coils
                              Keep one prod tightly connected to the generator case post, 'G'.
                              Tightly connect the other prod to the Field post, 'F'.
                              6-volt generator - The meter should read, 2.3 - 2.7-ohms.
                              12-volt generator - The meter should read, 7.2 - 7.6-ohms.

                              Armature
                              Disconnect the 'F' prod from the previous test, and connect it to the Armature post, 'A'.
                              S-l-o-w-l-y turning the pulley clockwise (facing the pulley), the armature should read:
                              [For the 6-volt generator] 1.3 - 5-ohms*
                              [For the 12-volt generator] 0.7 - 2-ohms*
                              These values may vary due to the condition of the brushes and the condition of each commutator segment.

                              To prove if an Armature is grounded or shorted:
                              Set the meter to VOLTS with the prods on Ground and Armature posts, spin the pulley by hand. If there is a dead short, no voltage will be produced (no current, either), and the meter will display zero volts. The fastest I can hand-spin will only produce about 0.2-volts in either the six or twelve volt generators.

                              If your generator passes these tests, it should produce about 8.25-volts for the six volt gen, and 14 - 15-volts, for the 12-volt generator (running in your engine). Both of these generators produce about 40-amps. I use #8 AWG stranded copper wire for the armature harness. The field only draws one or two amps, so small wire (#16 AWG) will work just fine.

                              Grounding is VERY important. I use the same size Ground wire as the Armature, #8. Many times, your generator has to supply the load AND charge the battery. Cold starts with headlights and heater blower blazing, demands maximum output from a generator. - Dave

                              EDIT: My generator shop warns me that too much paint will insulate your generator or starter motor from ground. 12 volts is not a lot of push and 6 volts is even more critical. So, be sure your back plate/brush holder has lockwashers that dig into the metal, and give your ground a clear path back to the battery. The Ground wire is equally important as the +12.
                              Last edited by simplyconnected; March 18th, 2013, 02:09 PM.
                              My latest project:
                              CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

                              "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
                              --Lee Iacocca

                              From: Royal Oak, Michigan

                              Comment

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