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Crank, crank, crank.....................start

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  • #31
    This is the correct number 1960 model Carter AFB on the 60 430 -- the primary and secondary jets are correct, as well as the metering rods. I checked all of them.

    The accelerator pump is set in the top hole for maximum stroke as shown in the 60 manual page 3-27 Fig 46

    The choke is fully functional, and calibrated correctly as shown in Fig 48 (When choke is fully closed the fast idle screw is aligned with the index mark on the high step of the fast idle cam).

    (While depressing the pedal to the floor one time, the accelerator pump gives a good stream of gas from both nossels, and the choke will go fully closed. I can visually see this with the air cleaner off.)

    I start the car by depressing the pedal to the floor one time. Turn the key -- and it cranks for 3-4 seconds without start. Pump it again about 3-4 more times, and with foot off of the gas, it will usually start.

    I think I mentioned that I also tried a second carburetor from a 59 430 (rebuilt) and the AM hard start still existed.
    Last edited by bcomo; January 28th, 2009, 03:13 PM.
    Bart
    1960 Hard Top/430
    Thunderbird Registry Number 1231

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by JohnG View Post
      Question: Bill (Penelope)... gets excellent results. Located in Australia. Does the gas there have 10% ethanol in it like here??

      If Bill is dealing with different gas, then that is of interest. If not then we need to study his details carefully.

      If I'm all wet on this, don't hesitate to say so!

      John
      Jon, I am using 95 octane premium unleaded and I also put 100ml bottle of upper cylinder lube in each 3rd tank full to replace the missing lead. As far as I know there is no ethanol in our fuel here YET, although it is an often talked about item by the newsreaders.

      Hope this helps, I will be back down at the house where Penelope lives shortly and can get any other details then if required.
      sigpicBill
      Thunderbird Registry 21903 & 33405

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by bcomo View Post

        This is the correct number 1960 model Carter AFB on the 60 430 -- the primary and secondary jets are correct, as well as the metering rods. I checked all of them.

        The accelerator pump is set in the top hole for maximum stroke as shown in the 60 manual page 3-27 Fig 46

        The choke is fully functional, and calibrated correctly as shown in Fig 48 (When choke is fully closed the fast idle screw is aligned with the index mark on the high step of the fast idle cam).

        (While depressing the pedal to the floor one time, the accelerator pump gives a good stream of gas from both nossels, and the choke will go fully closed. I can visually see this with the air cleaner off.)

        I start the car by depressing the pedal to the floor one time. Turn the key -- and it cranks for 3-4 seconds without start. Pump it again about 3-4 more times, and with foot off of the gas, it will usually start.

        I think I mentioned that I also tried a second carburetor from a 59 430 (rebuilt) and the AM hard start still existed.
        HUH!... Interesting...

        Just curious. How is the compression?

        Comment


        • #34
          Just another thought-

          When you set the choke- (full depression and release of fuel pedal), does the choke plate completely close or is there a small air gap left for air ingestion? I am thinking that if completely closed, it will not start as a result of no air and then when you pump it a few times, air is introduced via the mechanical choke pull-off feature.

          (Don't mind me- sitting here drinking coffee aggravating everyone)

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by KULTULZ View Post
            HUH!... Interesting...

            Just curious. How is the compression?
            This is my newly rebuilt 430 (done by a good shop) with about 1000 miles on it. Haven't checked the compression.

            This hard start issue existed before and after the rebuild.

            Leads me now to think that it might be something that I have NOT changed.

            The only things that I have not changed is the Pertronix I module, the Pertronix I coil. Those are still the same.

            All other things like different rebuilt carb, new fuel pump, plugs, wires, cap, rotor, battery, have been changed.
            Bart
            1960 Hard Top/430
            Thunderbird Registry Number 1231

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by KULTULZ View Post
              Just another thought-

              When you set the choke- (full depression and release of fuel pedal), does the choke plate completely close or is there a small air gap left for air ingestion? I am thinking that if completely closed, it will not start as a result of no air and then when you pump it a few times, air is introduced via the mechanical choke pull-off feature.

              (Don't mind me- sitting here drinking coffee aggravating everyone)
              No aggravation.

              There is a small air gap when the car is cranked, caused by the suction on the choke plate through the carb by the manifold intake. That can easily be varied by moving the hot air mechanical choke from the index mark to the more lean position 1 or 2 notches. I'll try that.
              Bart
              1960 Hard Top/430
              Thunderbird Registry Number 1231

              Comment


              • #37
                Bart's 430cid has a Carter on top.
                sigpic
                The 1960 Ford Thunderbird. The WORLD'S most wanted car....

                VTCI Member#6287.

                Comment


                • #38
                  hi Bart

                  I would consider the following: have a stock, points based distributor in decent condition (good bushings, new points) and try swapping the Pertronix out.

                  It is probably fine but a) you don't know for certain b) having a backup ignition system around in case of failure is not a bad thing. You get to use the same distributor cap for the test.

                  Either way you get to eliminate a weak spark as a problem.

                  John
                  1958 Hardtop
                  #8452 TBird Registry
                  http://www.tbirdregistry.com/viewdat...tryNumber=8452


                  photo: http://www.squarebirds.org/users/joh...d_June2009.jpg
                  history:
                  http://www.squarebirds.org/users/johng/OCC.htm

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Hey guys,
                    I have had to send my carb back to Pony Carb in New Mexico for warrentee work on the carb with respect to the choke. Looks like this was the problem. I would anticipate that was the problem as it always stayed 1/2" plus open and it took many pumps of the gas pedal and cranking to get it to fire. My understanding is that when the choke is closed (plate closed) it causes a vacuum that draws fuel from both the main fuel system as well as from the idle fuel system causing an exra rich fuel mixture. Since the plate was open when it was cold, I could not get this extra rich mixture until I pumped the gas many times. Got this out of the shop manual and it makes sense. I should get it back in about 7-10 days. WIll let you know. By the way, those guys down there are FANTASTIC! My problem was a defective part, not their fault.
                    Greg

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Better Starting

                      Hey Greg: I just saw your post after I posted mine. Same issue, but just an adjustment of the automatic choke on mine to fully closed made a really big difference. (See below).

                      -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                      I did two tests this weekend on choke settings.

                      First, I set the choke 2 notches lean (meaning that the choke would be more open at start-up) That didn't improve the morning cold start.

                      Next, I set the choke 2 notches rich (meaning that the choke would be completely closed at start-up with no air gap at all). That resulted in a Three pump cold AM start. (much better)

                      Then, I changed the plug wires to a new set of MotorCraft.

                      Now I'm down to mostly Two pumps at cold start.

                      Next:
                      I found the Pertronix specs on the web for the FlamerThrower I Coil to check it out.

                      The Primary resistance was fine at 1.5 Ohms from + to -

                      The secondary resistance from center to - , and center to +, was equal at 9.1 K Ohms on each side on my coil. The Pertronix specs call for 10.6 K Ohms. Looks like I'm 1.82 K Ohms low on my coil.

                      I'm going to ask Pertronix if that's acceptable, or if that could make a low voltage difference.

                      SPARK PLUGS:
                      There were alot of plug options on the "Spark Plugs" post that Ray did, but nothing at the end as to opinions on what were the best two or so.

                      The Champs F-11Y were stock, but what do you guys think are the best to use? (I can get BF-42, 45, RF-11YC)

                      I'm using AP-45 Platinum's now, but the electrode is very small. Maybe a larger electrode is better for us.
                      Last edited by bcomo; February 2nd, 2009, 11:04 PM.
                      Bart
                      1960 Hard Top/430
                      Thunderbird Registry Number 1231

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Bart, good work!!!

                        Pertronix: your resistance is off by about 10%. This also assumes your meter is spot on accurate. I would be surprised if this was your problem but let us know what they say!!

                        Plugs: I would use the Champions until you get the matter resolved (old rule of thumb: have as few variables as possible). I have been using the AC Delco version of whatever the shop manual recommends and they do very well. I think an "R" in the plug name means "resistor" which to me means less spark so I avoid them (no radio problems either). I also have metal core plug wires for less voltage drop. An excellent spark is always a good thing!

                        Choke: apparently that has to be done "just right". In the long run, your solution will eventually be the product of determination and attention to detail.

                        john
                        Last edited by JohnG; February 2nd, 2009, 11:13 PM.
                        1958 Hardtop
                        #8452 TBird Registry
                        http://www.tbirdregistry.com/viewdat...tryNumber=8452


                        photo: http://www.squarebirds.org/users/joh...d_June2009.jpg
                        history:
                        http://www.squarebirds.org/users/johng/OCC.htm

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          There is much more to a properly adjusted choke than just varying the setting of the choke cap. Please read your shop manual very closely.

                          As for plugs, copper plugs (non-suppression) should be the preferred type (IMO) as platinum are meant for extremely high voltage output and are very expensive. If one could find MOTORCRAFT BF-42 (with no other PN designation such as R or S, they would offer the least reistance.

                          PERTRONIX requires full BAT VLT to the module and if a stock coil, resistance voltage to the coil. If a FLAMETHROWER or other hot coil, it will also need full BAT VLT. The instruction sheets are available on the PERTRONIX site.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            I found some BF-42's listed on E-Bay. I may pick those up.

                            I have full battery voltage going to the Pertronix coil. Measured both while cranking, and during run.

                            Regarding the plug wires themselves -- is there any reference to whether the original plug wires were resistor wires or not?
                            Bart
                            1960 Hard Top/430
                            Thunderbird Registry Number 1231

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              The shop manual for my '58 says they are resistance wires designed to filter out frequencies that would be heard on the radio. The resistance should not exceed 24,000 ohms.
                              1958 Hardtop
                              #8452 TBird Registry
                              http://www.tbirdregistry.com/viewdat...tryNumber=8452


                              photo: http://www.squarebirds.org/users/joh...d_June2009.jpg
                              history:
                              http://www.squarebirds.org/users/johng/OCC.htm

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Thanks John. I was looking for it in the 60 manual in the specs at the end of chapter 2, but finally found it on Page 2-5.

                                For the 60 it says "Radio Resistance Wires" with no more than 24,500 Ohms per wire.

                                So, Resistance Wires, with non-resistor plugs --OK.
                                Last edited by bcomo; February 3rd, 2009, 01:28 PM.
                                Bart
                                1960 Hard Top/430
                                Thunderbird Registry Number 1231

                                Comment

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