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  • Steering Control Valve Tech Tip

    I was speaking with Dave Hodges ~ ayrwoof who gave me a tip regarding leaking power steering control valves. It appears that Ford was having the same issue back in the 50's and 60's. According to someone he spoke to who worked at an Edsel/Lincoln-Mercury dealership the fix was to soak the seals in DOT3 brake fluid for 15-20 minutes before installing and install them still wet. After putting the valve together fill with Type F transmission fluid. He says he did this quite a few years ago on his '60 and his valve is still leak free. He also indicated that he got new seals from The O-Ring Store LLC: https://www.theoringstore.com/ The part number for the larger seal is 6226-07-E70. He did not have the part number for the smaller seal but they list many different Ford seal kits so it's best to give them a call.

    John
    John Pizzi - Squarebirds Administrator

    Thunderbird Registry #36223
    jopizz@verizon.net 856-779-9695

    http://www.squarebirds.org/picture_gallery/TechnicalResourceLibrary/trl.htm

  • #2
    This could be a great fix for a long time ongoing problem. I hope we get some feedback when some of the members try it. It should go in the TRL.
    Nyles

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    • #3
      Steering Control Valve Tech Tip

      I have just put this into the TRL in the Power Steering section. You will find it listed in the 2nd link down, •Squarebird Power Steering Rebuild & New Seals Kit. Clicking on that link will take you to the information below that Dave Hodges ~ arywoof provided John ~ jopizz with. I combined the two and modified the title slightly to indicate the seals were available also. Daro at The O-Ring Store (I will add them to the Advertisements Forum) told me that if someone can measure the smaller seal, Inside & Outside Diameter and send them a picture of it with those measurements, they may have that smaller seal also. You can email him at:

      daro@theoringstore.com

      Ray Clark - Squarebirds Administrator
      '59 Tbird "The Yellow Rose Of Texas" aka "Tweety Bird"
      "It's Hip To Be Square"
      Thunderbird Registry #33025 VTCI #11178

      Contact me via Private Message for my email address, or (Cell) 210-875-1411 (Home) 210-674-5781

      http://www.squarebirds.org/picture_gallery/TechnicalResourceLibrary/trl.htm

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      • #4
        Wait a minute...
        Seals and fluids must be compatible. Normally, seals made for use with DOT-3 will bloat terribly when exposed to petroleum-based products. We also found that silicone-based fluids can bloat certain seals.

        'O' rings come in different rubber compounds. Some are neoprene, Viton, Buna-N, etc.

        Do NOT buy any 'O'-ring and slap it in your steering system without knowing EXACTLY what it is or another teardown will certainly be in your near future.

        It is a mistake to point to the TRL before knowing specifics about compatibility with our steering systems. - Dave
        My latest project:
        CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

        "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
        --Lee Iacocca

        Comment


        • #5
          As I pointed out Dave Hodges had success with certain seals that I referenced in my post. Since his rebuild has lasted multiple years without failure I will assume that the seals he used and the procedure he used was successful. We can only go by our members successes and failures. Any criticism of that is baseless in my opinion.

          John
          John Pizzi - Squarebirds Administrator

          Thunderbird Registry #36223
          jopizz@verizon.net 856-779-9695

          http://www.squarebirds.org/picture_gallery/TechnicalResourceLibrary/trl.htm

          Comment


          • #6
            Good point Dave. I looked at theoringstore website and used the part number John listed and it showed it was made from EPDM. Then on the compatibility list, it shows it is recommended for brake fluid and not recommended for auto trans fluid. Hmm? The recommended for trans fluid was viton, Buna-N or kalrez. Of the 3, kalrez was the only one highly recommended for both fluids. Very expensive and may not be available in the sizes needed. I wonder what material Ford used on the original seals?
            I think most of the commercial seal sealants in the cans at the auto stores are designed to chemically make the old seals swell. Guess this would be a long term test is someone tries it.
            Nyles

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Tbird1044 View Post
              Guess this would be a long term test is someone tries it.
              Nyles
              The fact that Dave Hodges installed that seal many years ago and it hasn't leaked tells me that neither the brake fluid nor the Type F transmission fluid did it any harm. That's a lot longer than most people are getting out of new seals without soaking them beforehand. I know that from personal experience.

              John
              John Pizzi - Squarebirds Administrator

              Thunderbird Registry #36223
              jopizz@verizon.net 856-779-9695

              http://www.squarebirds.org/picture_gallery/TechnicalResourceLibrary/trl.htm

              Comment


              • #8
                John, with all due respect to you and Dave, I must defer to the experts who make 'O'-rings. Parker Hannifin has always been Ford's 'go-to' company. As Nyles pointed out, Parker has a handbook of compatibility because Parker makes 'O'-rings.

                They show a listing for Type 'A; Transmission oil but I would call them for other types (like Type 'F'). Here's what they say:
                Attached Files
                My latest project:
                CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

                "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
                --Lee Iacocca

                Comment


                • #9
                  With all due respect something that has worked in a practical application for multiple years trumps any list you can provide. If I worked on cars solely based on what it says on paper and not by trial and error I wouldn't be much of a mechanic.

                  John
                  John Pizzi - Squarebirds Administrator

                  Thunderbird Registry #36223
                  jopizz@verizon.net 856-779-9695

                  http://www.squarebirds.org/picture_gallery/TechnicalResourceLibrary/trl.htm

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Steering Control Valve Tech Tip

                    Thanks to John ~ jopizz, we have been doing some research on these seals. John happens to have a few of them, one for the 1958 Spool small end and one for the 1958-1960 Spool large end with an EP45 number on it. That appears to be a Eaton Product Part #, according to Daro at The O-Ring Store. With the measurements and pix that John provided, Daro was able to tell me what their Part # was for those two additional seals. Here is that information.

                    The O-Ring Store Seal Part #'s

                    1958-1960 Thunderbird Power Steering Control Valve Seals - Used on 1958-1965 Tbirds (so I read).

                    1958 Spool small end - 5/8" ID x 7/8" OD - 1/8" C/S - HRU12-0.62-12 Buna-N - 0 In stock but they can get them.

                    https://www.theoringstore.com/index....=HRU12-0.62-12

                    1959-1960 Spool small end - 1/2" ID x 7/8" OD x 3/16" C/S - 6226-07-E70. An EPDM seal - 408 In stock

                    https://www.theoringstore.com/index....rd=6226-07-E70

                    1958-1960 Spool large end - 11/16" ID x 7/8" OD 3/32" HT - Part # EP45 - HRU09-0.68-09 Buna-N
                    0 In stock, but they can get them.

                    https://www.theoringstore.com/index....=HRU09-0.68-09

                    Daro said that instead of soaking them in brake fluid or Type F, to Use a PTFE Based Lubricant - Part # 21030

                    Buna-N 6226-07 good for petroleum based uses

                    https://www.theoringstore.com/index....&keyword=21030

                    Today, I spoke with Parker regarding the O-Ring Handbook not listing Transmission fluid Type F. What he told me was that Type F was not satisfactory to use either. Here is the information he gave me on page 3-11 of the Handbook.

                    Parker O-Ring Handbook

                    http://www.parker.com/literature/O-R...ORD%205700.pdf

                    For automatic transmission:
                    Medium: ATF oil (Automatic Transmission Fluid)
                    Compound: N0674-70, N0552-90, AA150-70,
                    AE152-70 (Vamac), V1164-75,
                    V0884-75 (brown)
                    Last edited by YellowRose; July 11th, 2018, 09:06 PM.

                    Ray Clark - Squarebirds Administrator
                    '59 Tbird "The Yellow Rose Of Texas" aka "Tweety Bird"
                    "It's Hip To Be Square"
                    Thunderbird Registry #33025 VTCI #11178

                    Contact me via Private Message for my email address, or (Cell) 210-875-1411 (Home) 210-674-5781

                    http://www.squarebirds.org/picture_gallery/TechnicalResourceLibrary/trl.htm

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      John / Ray thanks very much for this, as it will be helpful in outsourcing parts for our members moving forward.
                      Dano Calgary,Alberta Canada
                      Thunderbird Registry
                      58HT #33317
                      60 HT (Sold )

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by jopizz View Post
                        With all due respect something that has worked in a practical application for multiple years trumps any list you can provide. If I worked on cars solely based on what it says on paper and not by trial and error I wouldn't be much of a mechanic.

                        John
                        HEAR,HEAR!

                        If I may point out, I think the discussion has missed the original intention or perhaps the obvious.

                        I believe the point of soaking the o-rings prior to installation was because thru experience (see above), one had found that the o-ring material WAS incompatible (one point for DAVE) with the soaking proceedure, and that it was this reaction effect that one sought for the end result of better famililarization between the surfaces leading to a superior sealing value.

                        And I'm sure the engineers, referring to their material compatibility charts, would be aghast at the idea, but in the end, why was one in the field searching for a solution to a problem the engineers didn't acknowledge or solve first!

                        Scott.
                        Last edited by pbf777; July 13th, 2018, 09:32 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          The service person Dave Hodges talked to did not indicate if Ford had issued a TSB outlining the soaking of the seals or the mechanics had found this out on their own. Obviously leaking control valves was a problem very early on (and it continues to be) and just replacing the seals was not a permanent fix. Having worked on many different Fords including full size and Mustang the control valves and the seals changed many times until the system was finally dropped. Like many things that Ford engineered in the 50's and 60's you have to ask yourself what were they thinking.

                          John
                          John Pizzi - Squarebirds Administrator

                          Thunderbird Registry #36223
                          jopizz@verizon.net 856-779-9695

                          http://www.squarebirds.org/picture_gallery/TechnicalResourceLibrary/trl.htm

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by pbf777 View Post
                            ...why was one in the field searching for a solution to a problem the engineers didn't acknowledge or solve first?...
                            The answer is easy (if you think about it). Back then, 'plastics and polymers' were in their infancy. The right compound wasn't invented until later. I won't pretend to be an expert on chemicals or compounds but this answers the question of why so many of our expensive 'steering rebuilds' are not lasting more than a few weeks!

                            It also addresses the issue of why Stop Switches fail after two years after using DOT-5 (silicone-based fluid). Silicone requires different seal compounds from DOT-3. Compatibility IS the issue.

                            The automotive industry wasn't alone with this problem. In the 1970s, we (Ford Manufacturing Development) acquired an 'orbital' press, manufactured in Poland. Brand new, it leaked like a sieve because their seals were crap. Our seals were marginally better.

                            So, mechanics like John were forced to find their own solutions while everyone else simply lived with the leaks.

                            The Parker handbook is TODAY's compatibility chart which includes compounds I've never heard of. I spoke with our contact at Parker today and he kept emphasizing, 'it depends on the application'. Later, I realized his point:

                            Not only is the 'O'-ring compound important but so is the transmission oil used, the environment it lives in AND the product's durability index.

                            Some people are using synthetic and silicone-based oils with the belief that this 'change' is an improvement. Nothing can be farther from the truth.

                            Some of the part numbers Ray posted in his Parker statement will NOT be suitable in Detroit as they only go down to -5 degrees F. 'O'-ring # AE152-70 (in the correct sized 'O'-ring) is in the temperature range we need for automatic transmission oil. Turns out, Parker makes 20 other choices in that same ethylene acrylate compound that are all compatible. Each compound is designed for specific applications. - Dave
                            My latest project:
                            CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

                            "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
                            --Lee Iacocca

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              That really wasn't intended as a question, my punctuation failure.

                              But, thank you for the additional insight though.

                              Scott.

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