Eric's 1960 T-Bird

[simplyconnected]

Yep, that's what I saw. These upper bushings should have inner sleeves that are RECESSED into the urethane. I don't know why I'm looking at rust on new bushings. The first bushing on the left is COCKED with the left deeper than the right. It looks like the urethane is protruding OUT from the left side as evidenced by that line of rust on the left only.
That inner sleeve should be tucked INSIDE the urethane so far that I cannot see it.



Here's the other bushing. This inner sleeve looks like it has SEPARATED from the urethane. Again, both sleeves should be inside the urethane, not sticking out of the flange end:



In normal assembly, when the large washer is installed, the bolt pushes the urethane AND the sleeve into the pivot shaft (no more than 1/8" or .125"). Therefore, the inner sleeve's teeth tighten on that one side between the shaft and the bolt. Then, the other side works the same. They do not equalize the shaft difference, left to right.

HOWEVER, if urethane is loose and not vulcanized inside the shell and sleeve, the upper shaft might be tight all day long but the arm and urethane would rotate and move on the inner sleeve. That is NOT good. It will wear out quickly. The idea is for the arm to flex the urethane in its range of motion.

I'm still trying to figure out how the inner sleeve separated from the urethane. Anyway, THAT is where your .40" is. - Dave

[OX1]

Yes the bushings are against the shoulder (not the flange) and can not be driven anymore.
I have about .40" more to do to close over the inner shaft.
The tube I used rubs against the urethane. It can not be much more smaller.

Then in my opinion, the shoulder was not manufactured
in the correct location (or the overall bushing length is short).

The other dimensions that could be off, on other parts,
don't add up to anywhere near .4".

[OX1]

I'm still trying to figure out how the inner sleeve separated from the urethane. Anyway, THAT is where your .40" is. - Dave

Could be a combo I guess, outer metal sleeve
on bushing does not appear to be pressed in
enough compared to everything else I've seen.

[simplyconnected]

Here is a good example of how your upper arm bushings should look. Notice how much urethane sticks out of the flange end and how deep the inner sleeve sits inside of it.

Also notice the picture on the left. Urethane is 'squirting' out around the inner sleeve. I know it's hard to see but it proves that the sleeve was not shoved into the urethane but rather the whole piece was vulcanized in a mold process.

If the steel was meant to slide on the urethane then lubrication would be necessary. That is not the case. - Dave

[Eric S]

Again the bushings are straight. I can see that from the inner side where they are parallel with the stamped hole edges in the arm.
From the outside, it may look crooked but that is because the flange is bent and gives this visual feeling.

I told also before that the inner sleeve moved when I tried to press the bushing on the shoulder while holding the shaft in a vise.
This is done and understood.
The principle of functionning with urethane vulcanised on both sleeves and arm floating around on urethane is also understood.

However the 0.400" gap was there before the inner sleeves moved out.
One can see that the inner sleeve is recessed in the Urethane on several pictures on the outside and on the inside, both urethane and inner sleeve are more or less even exactly like the new bushing picture. (Of course not where the inner sleeve popped out).

As for the rust, I can only said that those are probably made in India or anywhere else in Asia with poor quality steel and rust proofing treatment.

OX1
Then in my opinion, the shoulder was not manufactured
in the correct location (or the overall bushing length is short).
Overall outer sleeve length is the same as on originals bushings ...

Now on Rockautos.com

https://www.rockauto.com/fr/moreinfo.php?pk=674626&cc=1336632

and

https://www.rockauto.com/fr/moreinfo.php?pk=6988428&cc=1336632

Dimensions seems to match my parts...

[OX1]

Then the only thing left is the inner toothed tube, vs the outer tube placement and kind of what I think Dave is insinuating,
that some how either they started out wrong, or slipped and are now in the wrong spot.

There are really not that many pieces to this puzzle, really only 4 critical dimensions.

[Eric S]

OX1

On the arm where the inner sleeve has not been abused and moved
From bushing face to bushing face I have 8.03"
Urethane protrudes roughly .150+.200 = .350
Inner sleeves are slightly inside so maybe closer to .325
Anyway 8.03 - .35 = 7.71"
Missing +/-.30" to get to the shaft's shoulders at 7.40

From your figures I came to 7.953" from bushing face to bushing face and you measured 7.48-7.50 on shaft.
So difference in opening + difference in shaft adds up to almost .20" between your parts and mine.

With such allowances in those parts, there is no way to adjust anything??

[OX1]

OX1

On the arm where the inner sleeve has not been abused and moved
From bushing face to bushing face I have 8.03"
Urethane protrudes roughly .150+.200 = .350
Inner sleeves are slightly inside so maybe closer to .325
Anyway 8.03 - .35 = 7.71"
Missing +/-.30" to get to the shaft's shoulders at 7.40

From your figures I came to 7.953" from bushing face to bushing face and you measured 7.48-7.50 on shaft.
So difference in opening + difference in shaft adds up to almost .20" between your parts and mine.

With such allowances in those parts, there is no way to adjust anything??

Do you think inner sleeve with teeth is in the wrong spot vs rest of bushing then?

[Eric S]

On this arm I think the inner sleeve is NOT misplaced.
From the ends it looks ok and there is no signs of movement.
New bushings are on their way...

[OX1]

On this arm I think the inner sleeve is NOT misplaced.
From the ends it looks ok and there is no signs of movement.
New bushings are on their way...

Good to hear, hopefully you get some relief.
I know some of these issues can drive you crazy sometimes.

[simplyconnected]

Eric, I have some suggestions that I hope you follow when you install the new bushings.

For the upper control arm:

• Do not hold the pivot shaft in a vise. Let it freely 'float' while the bushings are installed.
  
• Do not put pressure on the inner sleeves or on the urethane. That means, no pounding, no vise or press pressure on the inner sleeve, ever. You want to work from the flange.
  
• I use a pipe nipple that goes over the urethane to protect it. The nipple's end sits flush on the flange (not on rubber) while the hollow inside touches nothing but it hugs the urethane.
  
• Back-up the control arm from the inside. If you have a wooden bench top or a 2x4 about waist high, place one end of the board on the ground and the top end under the arm's inside lip of the bushing you are installing. Then, pound the nipple and bushing in (down) from the outside. This sounds more difficult than it is. I use a vise to hold the 2x4 so it is vertical but still sitting on the ground. The nipple will stay where it is at because it hugs the urethane from the inside. If you need another hand, ask someone to help.
  
• Insert one side half-way, then the other side half way so you are sure the pivot shaft is going in correctly. Then proceed.
  
• When your bushing gets to the shoulder, stop. You will know when it gets there because insertion resistance increases.

Randy Harsha did his, for the first time ever, without any special tools, in his back yard. I don't use special tools either. You can wait for the tool you ordered but the results will be the same. - Dave

[Eric S]

Dave

what concerns me is that it's exactly what I did the first time !
The only thing is I continued to hammer it and used the wise to hold the shaft AFTER the bushing was on the shoulder and the shaft still loose.
I will make several measures on the new parts and arms when parts gets here and we'll see then.
Maybe Randy did not checked the inner shaft for fore and aft movement? Or I was unlucky...

Also as I said earlier considering the variations in parts dimensions and the lack of adjustment or tuning how can we make sure the parts will pile correctly?

[Eric S]

New bushings from Larry's Thunderbird arrived today.
They are obviously made in a different area from India and are longer as much as I can tell from the outside comparing from the flange.
The urethane is black, shiny and seems to be harder than the other ones from Bird Nest.
I will have the old ones removed on the special tools I made while waiting for the parts and make more comparisons.
It "looks" like I might not be able to press them all the way to the shoulder but I will have to make more measures.

Question remains as to how much tight I want the inner shaft to be held between both inner sleeves?

[simplyconnected]

And, your new bushings are different from Rock Auto's offerings because?

[Eric S]

Pictures on dealer's web site are not always accurate and do not show the actual product sometime (Larry's TBird show no shoulder).
Now if you want to know the difference with those from Rock Autos, please feel free to send a set from them so I can study that and make a comparison as I don't intend to order all the bushings made on the planet

I will give those from Larry's a try for now. Hopefully a last try.