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  • #61
    I stand by ALL those statements I posted. If you like, we can go through them one-by-one.
    • If you witnessed lifters interfering with the adjacent lobe then you must agree. The point is, the cam gear driving a distributor gear may simply undulate in either direction which never causes the distributor gear to bind.

    • A camshaft or crankshaft is made of very hard metals. I've been around Diemakers and Engine Plants long enough to know that a stone is always used to highlight and fix protrusions in steel. Not sandpaper, or anything that flexes. A stone. One that is flat. Camshafts and crankshafts are tooled to their approximate size then GROUND with a stone to their precise target size. After any stone work is done, always clean and oil the surface. At Dearborn Engine Plant, our Landis Crankshaft Grinders operate with constant coolant. The coolant is then filtered and re-circulated to all sixteen grinders (eight for main and eight for pin grinding). The same is true for the camshaft grinders. A localized protrusion is easily taken down with a flat stone.

    • I'm baffled by your use of a 'speed handle' as I envision you going 1,800 rpm by hand for 5-10 minutes. No, I use an electric drill motor. Oil pressure starts bypassing through the pressure relief valve if need be. The pump rotors and end plate have OIL between them and those parts are precision ground (with a stone). OMG, I can't shake the 'vision' of you going like mad cranking a brace and 1/4" socket, out of my head. How often do you do this?
    I run my oil pump for a while. We had one member who went through about four or five SETS of hydraulic roller lifters right after his overhaul. They were all different brands and all of them seized. I claimed he had dirt. He disagreed and refused to dissect one. Instead, he kept buying more sets of lifters. If he removed the lifter gallery plugs (one at a time) and ran his oil pump for an extended time without moving the crank he might have flushed most of the dirt out. This is NOT the way to clean an engine but he insisted his 390 builder was meticulously clean to a fault. - Dave

    Originally posted by pbf777 View Post
    Really, are you sure?! Particularly, at the point of the lifter barrels/body being engaged by an adjacent cam lobe (which, I have witnessed more than once)?

    Generally, metal cutting or forming tools are preferred, as it is never recommended to use any abrasive grinding material (i.g. sandpaper, stones etc., even Scotchbrite type material, although I understand it has been a somewhat popular practice, particularly in the past) to "work" the bearing surfaces, as some of that abrasive may (will) impinge upon the surface thereby causing damage to the functioning surface relationships when put into service.

    Although, I recommend against the practice in the use of the drill motor, preferring the simple "speed-handle" as one is less likely to lean on the tool as engaged, thereby creating an excessive thrust load on the pump rotor and potential scoring damage between it and the pump cover plate.

    My purpose is not to be at odds with anyone; but only to present another perspective for consideration. As there are many others whom, I'm sure, would be able to reveal their example of the saying....... "there's more than one way to skin a cat".

    Scott.
    My latest project:
    CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

    "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
    --Lee Iacocca

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by simplyconnected View Post
      • If you witnessed lifters interfering with the adjacent lobe then you must agree. The point is, the cam gear driving a distributor gear may simply undulate in either direction which never causes the distributor gear to bind. DAVE
      • I was attempting to describe a possible result (relevant in the discussion) in the scenario of one failing in the proper assembly of components, not a normal function as the result of intended engineering. Note that the camshaft is not intended to exhibit excessive thrust motion, for a number of reasons (including in this instance, gear alignment relationship), and is controlled within the engineering design.

        Originally posted by simplyconnected View Post
      • A camshaft or crankshaft is made of very hard metals. I've been around Diemakers and Engine Plants long enough to know that a stone is always used to highlight and fix protrusions in steel. Not sandpaper, or anything that flexes. A stone. One that is flat. Camshafts and crankshafts are tooled to their approximate size then GROUND with a stone to their precise target size. After any stone work is done, always clean and oil the surface. At Dearborn Engine Plant, our Landis Crankshaft Grinders operate with constant coolant. The coolant is then filtered and re-circulated to all sixteen grinders (eight for main and eight for pin grinding). The same is true for the camshaft grinders. A localized protrusion is easily taken down with a flat stone. DAVE
      But.........we were not talking about these items, rather I believe you qualified "Bearing inserts are so soft, your finger nail can scratch them", and that was the subject I was responding to.

      Originally posted by simplyconnected View Post
    • I'm baffled by your use of a 'speed handle' as I envision you going 1,800 rpm by hand for 5-10 minutes. No, I use an electric drill motor. Oil pressure starts bypassing through the pressure relief valve if need be. The pump rotors and end plate have OIL between them and those parts are precision ground (with a stone). OMG, I can't shake the 'vision' of you going like mad cranking a brace and 1/4" socket, out of my head. How often do you do this?
    Originally posted by simplyconnected View Post
    I run my oil pump for a while. DAVE
    And, I understand your confusion, but perhaps you should try it, as one will gather greater "feed-back" (with experience) and the impression of the fact that "all's right" at this juncture in the endeavour.

    Also, since your impression is that you need to turn the oil pump at "1800 R.P.M.'s for 5-10 minutes", I would like to ask, why? The start-up procedures for newly built engines often define that one should "prime" the oil system, I don't often see the term "thoroughly flush" used? I guess you won't need to apply any assembly-lube product in the process of the build, as it will be washed away from the intended surfaces before one ever actually starts the engine. But, if one insists, yes I agree, use your drill motor, just don't push down to hard.

    As far as the oil pumps components mentioned being "precision ground", well next time, take the cover plate off, and apply it against your lapping block (with proper technique, of course), and then observe this "precision" , we do with every build!

    Scott.

    Comment


    • #63
      Regarding the broken rolled-pin: is it possibly the drive gear on the distributor shaft is not seated and supported by the engine block?
      I.E. the pin is taking all the load of driving the oil pump and the downward forces generated by the cam turning the distributor?
      Hopefully this makes sense!
      A Thunderbirder from the Land of the Long White Cloud.

      Comment


      • #64
        Answer: YES!

        Scott.

        Comment


        • #65
          And, in regards to the possible vertical displacement posibilities, to long or deep is the other possibility. This causes the distributor gear to bottom-out against the register in the block, which if when the distributor retaining clamp/fork/hold-down is tighten, if the preload is to great, will cause damage to the gear and the block!

          Always, check this relationship when installing new/different distributors, as it is a common problem of mispositioned gear installations with the non-O.E.M. (original) distributor units.

          Scott.

          Comment


          • #66
            Tom, you're mighty close in your thinking. Scott brought your idea to the next step:

            A distributor gear installed too low? Hmmm... That's the best cause I've heard so far. That begs another question: Who installed the gear on the distributor? If it was a novice, this is certainly a possibility and yes, the 'noise' would come from the distributor. Bottom line: The distributor's hold-down bolt drove the housing down, the gear mashed against the block (causing resistance) and the weakest link was the roll pin in the distributor gear. There is another roll pin in the collar, on the bottom of the distributor housing. That needs to be checked as well as wear on the aluminum housing.

            Freedom of movement could have been checked by turning the rotor by hand and feeling the gear lash. It isn't much but a bind would present itself.

            Scott, when a drill motor is used to run the pump, no downward pressure is needed other than simple gravity, that naturally exerts downward force. I use a variable speed drill motor (as most are today). For every motion there is an equal and opposite motion, which is how I can feel the oil pump's resistance. If a problem poses itself, I would know it as it happens.

            Ford engine plants run their assembled engines in what we call 'the cold test'. A pneumatic motor engages the rear of the crankshaft while the newly assembled engine is still on its fixture. The engine only has oil as no heat will be produced. As the engine is turned at a healthy pace, resistance is monitored and data is computed for that engine.

            If 'something is wrong', the engine is torn down by hand, in an offline area called, EBUT (Engine Build Up and Teardown). Each engine has an associated plastic 'tray' where all the parts are laid out in separate partitions for QC Inspectors. Looking at the tray, everyone knows exactly where each part 'lived' in the engine.

            If all is well, the engine advances to 'Hot Test' where it runs on a mini dyno carousel with a dozen other engines running simultaneously.

            Now you know why I run the pump for so long. BTW, the bottom plate on oil pumps is not a cheap sheet metal stamping. It is a heavy gauge plate, hardened and ground. The fastening bolts are case hardened to grade-8. Before any damage, a huge amount of downward pressure would need to be exerted. Most intermediate driveshafts don't butt up on the ends but have room to move with expansion and contraction.








            These score marks didn't come from a grinding wheel, They were caused by abrasive dirt and junk in the oil that got past the pickup screen. All oil goes through the pump BEFORE it gets bypassed or filtered.

            My latest project:
            CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

            "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
            --Lee Iacocca

            Comment


            • #67
              Thanks for all the input.

              The distro came with the gear on it. it measured the same as the FoMoCo one as far as alignment on the shaft. i do think that the tolerance was a bit wide considering i could slide the gear up and down after it broke. as in it was not pressed onto the shaft.

              My thoughts were if any bearing is damaged i would need to check the rest of them. just a thought.

              Just trying to think of the best use of my time and resources.
              1959 Thunderbird 397ci
              Cruise-O-Matic
              Flamingo Pink.
              Thunderbird Registry #8442
              Daily driver

              Comment


              • #68
                Originally posted by simplyconnected View Post
                BTW, the bottom plate on oil pumps is not a cheap sheet metal stamping. It is a heavy gauge plate, hardened and ground.
                [DAVE
                Actually, in this application (but which will also include most S.B.F., 335's, 385's & others), the plates that I have encountered often are of cast material, most likely described as of an iron alloy definition (just whack one with your hammer, it will break-up quite easily). I believe one of the reasons this material is utilized (other than cost) verses steel plate, is that it is less susceptible to warpage when machined.

                The reason we will hand lap the cover plates is that upon inspection one will rarely find it to be truly flat, at least not within our self imposed regulation. I am not knowledgeable of the exact manufacturing process, but the results appear consistent with the pump cover plates being located by a magnetic surface plate, and ground for relative flatness. Unfortunately, this process invokes a certain surface tension due to the tearing of the metal and displacement of the surface by the grinding stone (perhaps, there are other tooling possibilities), and of course heat imparted in the process; all of which even with the best reasonable efforts to avoid, particularly in this engineered shape, lends to the warpage as experienced.

                As far as hardness (a somewhat relative term), I have found them to be "relatively" soft; again, take one and work it some, and decide for your self.

                I feel we may have deviated somewhat from the original path of this thread, but perhaps still, it may aid in a better understanding of the components involved.

                Scott.
                Last edited by pbf777; June 28th, 2018, 12:47 PM.

                Comment


                • #69
                  Originally posted by StealthSRT10 View Post
                  ........... it measured the same as the FoMoCo one as far as alignment on the shaft.
                  Perhaps you would explain what you referenced and how you measured. Also some research can provide the proper reference values for comparison.

                  i could slide the gear up and down after it broke. as in it was not pressed onto the shaft.
                  This was and inquiry previously, as if the relationship between the gear and shaft does not present a reasonable interference fitment, the requirement in service upon the pin is excessive!

                  Scott.

                  Comment


                  • #70
                    Originally posted by pbf777 View Post
                    ...the plates that I have encountered often are of cast material, most likely described as of an iron alloy definition (just whack one with your hammer, it will break-up quite easily)...

                    ...As far as hardness (a somewhat relative term), I have found them to be "relatively" soft;..
                    Scott, it can't be brittle and soft at the same time. That is impossible. The end plates I worked with were hard and ground flat. Cast iron is hard and it will shatter as well. The pump in my pictures is 1973 OEM. The 'SP' in the plate are well-defined and probably not cast into the metal. - Dave
                    My latest project:
                    CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

                    "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
                    --Lee Iacocca

                    Comment


                    • #71
                      Originally posted by simplyconnected View Post
                      Scott, it can't be brittle and soft at the same time. That is impossible. - Dave
                      O.K. ............Lets say, there are two really big rock boulders in front of you, one is made-up of granite, the other of sandstone; someone hands you a five pound hammer, and challenges you to a race as to whom can reduce their assigned boulder to a pile of rubble first; do you pick the granite boulder because it's harder and therefore will break-up easier, than the accepted, softer sandstone, or........? Hum........

                      Now, we've really strayed off course, sorry! I promise, I won't do it again, I promise!

                      Scott

                      Comment


                      • #72
                        Alright Scott, school is in.
                        Hard means brittle. <--take this to the bank.
                        Glass is hard, rocks are hard, cast iron is hard. They will break before bending very much.

                        Steel is made from iron but it has other alloys that make it 'soft' and bendable. Different alloys also make steel 'tough', not hard, not soft. Drill rod and piano wire are tough, so is spring steel, and machine steel. Die steel is hard. It chips and breaks. If you chip a hammer, the steel is too hard.

                        Mild steel, like a grade-3 bolt simply bends or stretches. Grad-8 bolts are heat treated and case hardened. So now we have a bolt that is tough inside and HARDER on the outside. It will not stretch nearly as much as a grade-3 but it will withstand far more tensile or impact force before it snaps (half in two as they said at work).

                        Metallurgy is a science that requires the understanding of grain structures, martensite in alloys of nickels and titaniums and austenite crystals that form in the heat treat process. Cast iron, by definition, is 2% carbon with very little grain structure. It is porous and very hard but it also machines easily and requires little or no lubricant.

                        Your rock examples are both hard but one is more dense and the other is more porous. Did you ever set a wine glass on top of a polished granite countertop? If you don't wipe the 'ring' off the bottom, red wine will seep into the granite and stain forever. Granite is hard but porous. Sandstone is even more porous.

                        Questions?
                        My latest project:
                        CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

                        "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
                        --Lee Iacocca

                        Comment


                        • #73
                          OH,............ BOY.




                          I know,............I promised!



                          Scott.

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                          • #74
                            Thank you
                            Dano Calgary,Alberta Canada
                            Thunderbird Registry
                            58HT #33317
                            60 HT (Sold )

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                            • #75
                              Update and interesting info

                              So i now have a freshly rebuilt 390 assembled with my edelbrock performer intake that i ported. I am going to drop the exhaust manifolds off at the shop so that i can get them machined. i also purchased a new stock exhaust kit off ebay. looks pretty solid. i tried welding on the old pipe and on the lowest setting it just burned a hole through it. I plan on installing some O2 sensors to go with my air fuel gauge so i can monitor the ratio. One concern is when i go to break in the new cam that my edelbrock 600cfm carb may be too lean since i am going from a 352 to a 397ci. also i am planning on either getting my com trans rebuilt or swapping to a C6. i have gotten quoted $600 to $1200 for the rebuild and i have seen that i could get a c6 that is supposed to be fine for about $450. so just weighing the options out. I already have the flexplate and the started needed for the C6

                              So i figured out what i did so wrong when installing the cam on my past engine....... So there is a c shaped spacer that goes between the front of the cam and the timing gear on older timing sets. This spacer is fabricated into newer timing sets like the comp cams double roller i installed. Sooooooo very bad things happen when you install the spacer behind a timing gear that already has it built in.

                              This explains why the bearing when to crap. and why i was hearing the noise at the front of the engine. And is very likely why the camshaft shifted inside the block.

                              Well you live and you learn. I always say that you can be smart or wise, but gaining wisdom gets expensive lol

                              Anyways.
                              1959 Thunderbird 397ci
                              Cruise-O-Matic
                              Flamingo Pink.
                              Thunderbird Registry #8442
                              Daily driver

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