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  • Starter motor

    The last week the starter motor was turning over very slowly, almost not being able to start the engine. So i measured the battery voltage, which was ok at 12.7V, checked the wires, grounds and connections. All was ok. So today i removed the starter motor and found the brushes worn to almost nothing. But also the positive stud threads are almost gone, but doesn´t show signs of overheating.
    What i think is strange, that there are four places for the field windings, but only three of them are in use. Didn´t have time yet to find out if this is normal, at least the starter motor was working fine until now. I have new brushes , but have to see if the positive stud is ok for re-use.
    Edit: I just checked the manual and see that it is normal to only have three coils.
    sigpicFrank
    1958 T-Bird "Trovăo Rosa" - "Rose Thunder"
    Thunderbird registry #61670

  • #2
    CLICK HERE for your starter motor...
    My latest project:
    CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

    "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
    --Lee Iacocca

    From: Royal Oak, Michigan

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    • #3
      Great foto gallery and text, thanks Dave. My starter looks a bit different on the Bendix side, it doesn´t have the large spring but looks more as a bearing.
      What is the best way to connect the new brushes to the crimped/soldered side?
      Unbelievable how clean your starter looked inside, mine is almost black. The positive connection bolt is made out of copper, do they sell this part separately? It is a two step bolt, thirst a thicker thread and then a smaller for the starter wire.
      sigpicFrank
      1958 T-Bird "Trovăo Rosa" - "Rose Thunder"
      Thunderbird registry #61670

      Comment


      • #4
        Many of our vendors sell that copper starter bolt. I use kerosene (diesel fuel) to wash the inside. A good air hose or a few hours in the sun will help dry it out. That red paint is General Electric Glyptol, a special insulating paint. I don't want to melt or remove any of that with harsh solvents.

        Funny you should mention the solder connection. I happen to be in my local friendly auto-electric shop where the old-school owner reached down and picked up a welding handle.

        I was shocked. Well not really, but I was surprised at his most effective method for de-soldering that joint.

        He had a six-volt battery connected to one end of the cables. So, one was ground. The other had a welding handle with a carbon electrode, normally used for cutting through steel. He stuck the carbon rod directly on the solder connection. The rod got hot and the brushes nearly fell out.

        Then, he installed the new pair of brushes, crimped the metal over and added a little more solder. That left me thinking because I never saw or thought about using a carbon rod. The voltage was low enough where there were no sparks. The resistance of the carbon rod made a perfect heating element.

        I suppose I could heat a good-size piece of steel with a torch, then use the hot steel on the solder connection. For a one-time operation that would do nicely.

        Oh, one last word of caution... Do not paint your starter until you re-assemble it. Make sure your contact areas are bare and clean. I've seen beautiful rebuilds installed in cars but they wouldn't run at all. It doesn't take much paint to insulate 12-volts. The entire case is used for ground, from the mounting bolts to the end piece that holds the brushes. - Dave
        My latest project:
        CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

        "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
        --Lee Iacocca

        From: Royal Oak, Michigan

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        • #5
          Originally posted by simplyconnected View Post
          CLICK HERE for your starter motor...
          What a fantastic resource this website is!

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          • #6
            Thanks Peter, but as you can tell by the pictures, we've been here many times. During one of those times, I took some pictures along the way.

            Taking pictures makes the job twice as long but it is for the benefit of anyone who comes behind me. I'm glad they help. - Dave
            My latest project:
            CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

            "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
            --Lee Iacocca

            From: Royal Oak, Michigan

            Comment


            • #7
              Peter thanks for the compliment about our site. We are very fortunate to have Dave Dare as our Webmaster and others and their wealth of knowledge.
              Which is why I always say this is the the best Thunderbird site on the planet.
              Dano Calgary,Alberta Canada
              Thunderbird Registry
              58HT #33317
              60 HT (Sold )

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              • #8
                My starter motor doesn´t have any identification numbers on it, anybody knows what brand/type starter it is? I see several types of terminal posts for starters.
                sigpicFrank
                1958 T-Bird "Trovăo Rosa" - "Rose Thunder"
                Thunderbird registry #61670

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                • #9
                  All I have is as stated in the 1958 Ford Thunderbird Shop Manual
                  Part Number FAR-11002-A
                  Normal Engine Cranking RPM 150-180
                  Min.Torque @ 5 volts
                  Ft.Pounds (Min) 15.5
                  (Amp.) Load (Max.) 550
                  Gear Ratio 16.2
                  No Load Amperage @12v 80

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                  • #10
                    I don't know if you can find the wrong starter motor as Ford used the same one in all 6-cyl, 8-cyl, cars, trucks, tractors, marine, construction equipment, etc. Then, when Ford went to 12-volts in 1956, only the field windings changed.

                    MEL engines use the same starter motor but the electrical post was moved to clear the exhaust manifold.

                    Certainly, Ford couldn't possibly produce the required numbers of starter motors to meet production demands. So, a number of companies made them for Ford. - Dave
                    My latest project:
                    CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

                    "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
                    --Lee Iacocca

                    From: Royal Oak, Michigan

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I just bought a new starter motor positive post via Larry´s Thunderbirds. Now waiting two weeks or so for it to arrive.
                      sigpicFrank
                      1958 T-Bird "Trovăo Rosa" - "Rose Thunder"
                      Thunderbird registry #61670

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Frango100 View Post
                        I just bought a new starter motor positive post via Larry´s Thunderbirds. Now waiting two weeks or so for it to arrive.
                        Starter motors, generators and mechanical voltage regulators don't come in positive or negative ground. They only specify the voltage and maximum current.

                        Think about it, there is nothing solid state inside any of these components. Starter motors only have windings. Voltage regulators simply have relays, resistors and contacts.

                        So, how do boat people reverse their engines? By grinding a new camshaft. To reverse the rotation of a starter motor, simply switch either the field wires or the armature wires. (It's much easier to switch field wires inside the starter motor.)

                        I know a guy with a 55 Ford who had his battery connected in reverse. He brought the car to a garage and some kid installed the battery so he didn't notice for years. How on earth could that be? The car has a positive ground system but does it really matter?

                        Since the starter motor's field and armature were not changed, simply putting the opposite polarity on the motor has the same effect as switching both of them, causing the starter motor to turn in the same direction as before. Same story for the heater motor because it has separate field windings/armature, not permanent magnets. Gauges work from the heat that current causes, that's why there is no 'pos' or 'neg' on the posts of any Ford gauges. You simply cannot wire them wrong. Light bulbs don't care which direction, either.

                        BTW Frank, hang on to your old starter motor. It has many valuable parts inside, just in case... - Dave
                        My latest project:
                        CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

                        "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
                        --Lee Iacocca

                        From: Royal Oak, Michigan

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Ditto!

                          Just to add to what Dave said: in my younger days when getting around in a '4& F1 which was all original right down to the 6 volt system I used to at times refit the battery incorrectly after charging it up (a common occurrence as I couldn't afford a new one!) and would only realise it when all the gauges read backwards as I was driving along!

                          "Wow, this trucks MAKING gas instead of using it!!!" :-)
                          A Thunderbirder from the Land of the Long White Cloud.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by simplyconnected View Post
                            Starter motors, generators and mechanical voltage regulators don't come in positive or negative ground. They only specify the voltage and maximum current.

                            Think about it, there is nothing solid state inside any of these components. Starter motors only have windings. Voltage regulators simply have relays, resistors and contacts.

                            So, how do boat people reverse their engines? By grinding a new camshaft. To reverse the rotation of a starter motor, simply switch either the field wires or the armature wires. (It's much easier to switch field wires inside the starter motor.)

                            I know a guy with a 55 Ford who had his battery connected in reverse. He brought the car to a garage and some kid installed the battery so he didn't notice for years. How on earth could that be? The car has a positive ground system but does it really matter?

                            Since the starter motor's field and armature were not changed, simply putting the opposite polarity on the motor has the same effect as switching both of them, causing the starter motor to turn in the same direction as before. Same story for the heater motor because it has separate field windings/armature, not permanent magnets. Gauges work from the heat that current causes, that's why there is no 'pos' or 'neg' on the posts of any Ford gauges. You simply cannot wire them wrong. Light bulbs don't care which direction, either.

                            BTW Frank, hang on to your old starter motor. It has many valuable parts inside, just in case... - Dave
                            I will not change the starter motor, only the stud. I will put new brushes in and some new paint on it for the looks. Spending too much on this car already, so will try to keep it cheap where possible. Just send the radiator away for a new core. It was repaired a few months ago, but started leaking at another spot last week.
                            sigpicFrank
                            1958 T-Bird "Trovăo Rosa" - "Rose Thunder"
                            Thunderbird registry #61670

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              After you replace the terminal I would check it with an ohmmeter to make sure it's totally isolated from the case.

                              John
                              John Pizzi - Squarebirds Administrator

                              Thunderbird Registry #36223
                              jopizz@verizon.net 856-779-9695

                              http://www.squarebirds.org/picture_gallery/TechnicalResourceLibrary/trl.htm

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