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  • #16
    Originally posted by simplyconnected
    In short, what is a fair price to bring a 430 MEL back to its original glory, and where can our members go to get it? This information should include the name and number of a reputable engine builder who is familiar with MEL 430 engines. - Dave
    A "fair price" would be that in which both the buyer & seller were both satisfied with. Unfortunately, this would not consist of a specific number/monetary value across the board for any and all components and labor operations in every instance. Varying condition of the necessary items involved, & sum of the desired items to be addressed or replaced must be addressed on an individual basis. This question as you pose it, is not so simply answered.

    Different vehicle owners (buyers) and different shops/rebuilding facilities (seller) often have different ideas/intentions of what is required to rebuild or even what the definition of such truly is. This requires a "meeting of the minds" or else dissatisfaction looms in the relationship. And if not in agreement, part company amiably, before one even begins.

    The MEL engines are not so different from others (all have some sort of quirks), that any capable rebuilder/automotive machine shop shouldn't be able to provide such services. If the shop response is "we never worked on one of those before", this wouldn't be so surprising; but if also adding "I not sure if we know how", now, I suppose then I would move on.

    Scott.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by pbf777 View Post
      ...This question as you pose it, is not so simply answered.

      ...part company amiably, before one even begins.

      ...I suppose then I would move on...
      Are you serious? Not one name of an engine builder or a phone number? Again, lots of theory but I'm looking for tangible help.

      I use a reputable engine builder who offers a free 2-year warranty on engines he builds. He extends that warranty for a fee.

      I spoke with Mike, hours ago. He employs a dozen guys, each disciplined in different aspects of engine machining and assembly. He said his cost for a 430 set of heads is $600. That includes cleaning, truing all mating surfaces, new bronze guides, new exhaust seats and replacing any valves that are bad. Other options will be extra cost like, Viton seals, new springs, stainless valves, etc. So ok, I asked for standard fare, not rocket science. This is a good ball park start.

      Mike mentioned that 10:1 compression ratio brings us to the top of our commonly found fuel octanes. I agree. He said 430 pistons may be available but suggested going down in compression ratio to about 9.3-9.5:1. I also agree. He asked for a few days to search around for pistons.

      Mike is providing concrete answers, which is exactly what I would need to overhaul my 430. Before any work starts there will be a bottom line estimate and a detailed parts and labor list.

      Thanks for your answer Scott, but I think I'm all set. - Dave
      My latest project:
      CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

      "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
      --Lee Iacocca

      Comment


      • #18
        I'm not in the position to be aware, on a daily basis, of which shops provide what level of competence, on any possibly required operation, on any and all possible products, anywhere anyone on this forum may reside. Sorry.

        I am pleased with fact that you are satisfied with "your shop"; but as I read it, he hasn't stated a "how much a major overhaul will cost", some general numbers, but with the caveat that there are/will be additional charges for this or that, as required or deemed necessary. Doesn't really sound so different, does it? Some arbitrary "ball park" numbers to get started isn't what you asked; and I've been in the business long enough to see many projects fly right out of the "ball park" before it's over!

        To often, supposed facts and concrete answers are boisterously presented in forums; and I only wish to advise that anyone contemplating such services communicate directly and accurately with those whom supply such services vs. following the opinion of the naive.

        Now I'm sure I've stepped over the line (again), but I feel I have only responded in a format as presented by others.

        Remember the purpose here (forum) is to provide possible aid to others, not one's self. And that is my goal.

        Scott.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by pbf777 View Post
          ...Yes, rebuilding the 430 MEL will cost more than the FE, but not significantly.

          Pistons yes, but they are readily available from the custom piston manufactures, with some delay (3-4 weeks) for production...
          Sorry if I misunderstood your meaning but based on your answer, you say 'they are readily available'. I am looking for domed 430 pistons and I'm asking if you could share your source with our community. Yes, I asked for your help in estimating a fair price for an overhaul because you're right, after pistons are sourced the rest of the build is much like any FE engine. Fair and ball park have synonymous connotations.
          Originally posted by pbf777 View Post
          ...I am pleased with fact that you are satisfied with "your shop"; but as I read it, he hasn't stated a "how much a major overhaul will cost", some general numbers, but with the caveat that there are/will be additional charges for this or that, as required or deemed necessary. Doesn't really sound so different, does it? Some arbitrary "ball park" numbers to get started isn't what you asked; and I've been in the business long enough to see many projects fly right out of the "ball park" before it's over!..
          That's right, no price is possible until we find out what piston sizes are available, when they are available and finally, how much will they cost. We cut bore size to the pistons, so pistons must be there first.

          The 430 Bulldozer is very different because FE cast pistons cost about $110 per set, not $1,400. This 430 major overhaul may not happen at all if parts are out of reach. That is why Mike asked for a few days to check his extensive sources and suppliers.

          Extra cost? Let's play the 'what if' game... After cutting bores larger, what if the only pistons that are available are heavier than stock, which throws the crankshaft balance off. As with any engine, Mallory metal may need to be welded into the crankshaft counterweights and certainly a crankshaft balance (with flex plate and damper pulley) will be necessary. I've been here before with Sealed Power (Federal-Mogul) pistons. Size matters but excessive weight can drive the cost of an overhaul up an extra hundred bucks.

          Regardless, all these considerations are part of an estimate before any work starts.

          I simply gave a ball park number on heads because they are 'standard fare' and consistent with most cast iron heads. It's a good basis to start the overhaul pricing until more information becomes realized. All help is welcome. - Dave
          My latest project:
          CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

          "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
          --Lee Iacocca

          Comment


          • #20
            The draft tube on the 430 is inside the block, you cannot see it from above when looking at the top side of the engine. The tube exits the left rear corner of the engine adjacent to the oil pan corner. The tube only extends about an inch outside the block and has a 45 degree bevel cut on the end. If you do not see the tube, look closer and you'll see the hole in the block facing the road.
            Ken
            1959 J Convertible
            1960 J Hardtop

            Comment


            • #21
              I just called Wiseco and Egge. Wiseco will do them for $1100 with moly skirt, or $940 without (either would be forged). Egge will do them for $1200, again forged.

              Interestingly, Egge has the 462 cast pistons with what looks like the original "step" , but their cast 430 pistons are flat tops.

              https://egge.com/part/egg-1000-e969-8/

              Whole 430 rebuild kit here.

              https://egge.com/kit/l430m59-60/

              Lets say you add another $800 for the correct pistons, so we are at $3100 for parts.

              It was suggested $600 for 430 head machine work. Lets add
              another grand for block, tank and machine work. So we are at about $4700 for a mostly stock rebuild (with forged pistons, assuming self reassembly).

              Not a crazy amount of money these days. For reference, here is a bone stock 2015 coyote long block.

              http://www.cjponyparts.com/ford-perf...7/p/M6006M50A/
              59-430-HT

              Comment


              • #22
                The more I look, I'd think I'd just source a 462 and rebuild that.
                Should drop right in where a 430 goes, yes?

                And just like the 390, the 462 will look just like a 430.

                http://www.ebay.com/itm/1966-1967-LI...ZZHfCT&vxp=mtr


                Rebuild kit with what looks like correct pistons for $1800 here

                http://www.bakersauto.com/ENGINE-REB...oductinfo/ERK/
                59-430-HT

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by OX1 View Post
                  ...Whole 430 rebuild kit here.

                  https://egge.com/kit/l430m59-60/

                  Lets say you add another $800 for the correct pistons, so we are at $3100 for parts.

                  It was suggested $600 for 430 head machine work. Lets add
                  another grand for block, tank and machine work. So we are at about $4700 for a mostly stock rebuild (with forged pistons, assuming self reassembly).

                  Not a crazy amount of money these days. For reference, here is a bone stock 2015 coyote long block.

                  http://www.cjponyparts.com/ford-perf...7/p/M6006M50A/
                  And the difference is, the Coyote engine is sold outright. The entire engine is light weight aluminum that produces 435HP right out the box. It features a roller cam and it is balanced.

                  By contrast, US$4,700 is a terrible price because you end up with a heavy cast iron engine that was assembled with cheap components, uses flat tappets and is not balanced. Expect 80,000 miles, like when the 1960 engine was new.

                  When I overhaul an engine I assume nothing. I take it all the way down, machine the castings, then use name-brand components and premium parts like, FelPro gaskets, Cleveite bearings, a true roller timing set, Hastings moly rings, Mellings oil pump and intermediate shaft, brass core plugs, etc. I also choose a proper cam for the intended service, and time it accordingly. My recent builds included roller cams for today's oils (so do OEMs). Expect 250,000 miles between overhauls, iike modern engines.

                  I'm not knocking Egge's offering, at least they have one, but their components are mediocre at best. Cast pistons in a naturally aspirated engine work perfectly fine but I use hypereutectic alloy aluminum with moly rings (and so do the OEMs).

                  The best combination (for me) is to source domed 430 pistons then hand pick all the other components. Curiously, the kits may be available including pistons but individually, their pistons are typically out of stock because the bundle fetches bigger profits. I guess they need to make money some how... - Dave
                  My latest project:
                  CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

                  "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
                  --Lee Iacocca

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Those figures scare me US $4,700 would pay for a mild rebuild of a 302 Windsor over here - and that would not include alloy head.

                    Heaven forbid my 390 ever needs rebuilding...

                    (PS My mate's getting his 428CJ rebuilt, I will report in the cost)
                    A Thunderbirder from the Land of the Long White Cloud.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      [QUOTE=OX1]The more I look, I'd think I'd just source a 462 and rebuild that.
                      Should drop right in where a 430 goes, yes?

                      Note that the bellhousing bolt pattern is different between early MEL's (pre-1961?; same as FE's) vs. latter units such as 462's (2 different; unique).

                      Scott.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by simplyconnected
                        By contrast,............. Expect 80,000 miles, like when the 1960 engine was new.
                        ............. Expect 250,000 miles between overhauls, iike modern engines.Dave
                        Although I agree, that with more modern materials, and some, improved component engineering, one can anticipate extending the functioning life of the engine, yes!

                        But, probably the greatest improvement in extending this life span was achieved with the introduction of fuel injection vs carburetors (fuel control); and therefore I'm not sure that one will still acquire the comprable performance life of the modern examples.

                        Scott.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          [QUOTE=pbf777;110045]
                          Originally posted by OX1
                          The more I look, I'd think I'd just source a 462 and rebuild that.
                          Should drop right in where a 430 goes, yes?

                          Note that the bellhousing bolt pattern is different between early MEL's (pre-1961?; same as FE's) vs. latter units such as 462's (2 different; unique).

                          Scott.
                          385 series bellhousing? Yet another reason, as I have 5 or 6 of them sitting around from parting out 70's FSB's and trucks.
                          59-430-HT

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by simplyconnected View Post
                            And the difference is, the Coyote engine is sold outright. The entire engine is light weight aluminum that produces 435HP right out the box. It features a roller cam and it is balanced.

                            By contrast, US$4,700 is a terrible price because you end up with a heavy cast iron engine that was assembled with cheap components, uses flat tappets and is not balanced. Expect 80,000 miles, like when the 1960 engine was new.

                            When I overhaul an engine I assume nothing. I take it all the way down, machine the castings, then use name-brand components and premium parts like, FelPro gaskets, Cleveite bearings, a true roller timing set, Hastings moly rings, Mellings oil pump and intermediate shaft, brass core plugs, etc. I also choose a proper cam for the intended service, and time it accordingly. My recent builds included roller cams for today's oils (so do OEMs). Expect 250,000 miles between overhauls, iike modern engines.

                            I'm not knocking Egge's offering, at least they have one, but their components are mediocre at best. Cast pistons in a naturally aspirated engine work perfectly fine but I use hypereutectic alloy aluminum with moly rings (and so do the OEMs).

                            The best combination (for me) is to source domed 430 pistons then hand pick all the other components. Curiously, the kits may be available including pistons but individually, their pistons are typically out of stock because the bundle fetches bigger profits. I guess they need to make money some how... - Dave
                            Was just using it as an example of what motors cost these days.
                            Funny with all that technology and a 4.17 first gear, it does not have the off idle torque of a worn out 430 (some of it is the crappy response of throttle by wire, but most of it is just lack of cubes).

                            250K miles, is about what I do, total mileage in all vehicles, in 20 years. I won't see 20K on any of my classics in 20 years. After that, I'll worry about it if you are still aloud to drive at all, let alone drive ICE vehicles.

                            I guess my moms orig 60, bought new by my dad and had 90K on it when it was parked in 77, was a real fluke then, huh?? Still ran just as well as it did when new (started to have some wierd electrical gremlins in headlights and Mom wanted new car, which unfortunately for her was a 77 Granada, a POS the day it came off the line and just got worse from there).
                            59-430-HT

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by OX1
                              385 series bellhousing?
                              Nope!!!

                              Although, the 462 MEL C6 transmission will bolt-up properly to 385 series engine block.

                              Scott.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                which unfortunately for her was a 77 Granada, a POS the day it came off the line and just got worse from there.

                                My very 1st brand new car was a 1976 Granada. Worst car I've EVER owned.
                                Regards,
                                Don Vincent
                                Amherst NY
                                1960 HT 352
                                TBird Registry 34042

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