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  • #46
    Originally posted by jopizz View Post
    Do you have the rear of the car up in the air or on the ground. If it's up in the air try putting it on the ground and see if it straightens out.

    John
    The car is on the ground now and still having the drive yoke center line horizontal, while it should point upwards a little bit, to be in line with the drive shaft. Before I changed the springs, it was pointing up a bit, but that was because the upper arm rear bushings where completely worn. Now with the new bushings, the axle is forced/tilted more forward, causing the "clapper" to be more open then it was before. I will see if I can get any P/N or identification from the diff housing. The only strange thing I see is that the differential is welded to the axle. Even though it seems to be welded well, it doesnīt look to be from the factory like this. As if they had welded a new/used differential to the existing axles.
    sigpicFrank
    1958 T-Bird "Trovão Rosa" - "Rose Thunder"
    Thunderbird registry #61670

    Comment


    • #47
      [QUOTE]The car is on the ground now and still having the drive yoke center line horizontal, while it should point upwards a little bit, to be in line with the drive shaft.

      Note that the proper pinion angle (differential) is referenced to the transmission output shaft angle, not the driveshaft. And to carry this discussion further, ideally the u-joint manufacturer's prefer at least 3° of angle deviation (@ u-joints) for best service life.

      [QUOTE]The only strange thing I see is that the differential is welded to the axle. Even though it seems to be welded well, it doesnīt look to be from the factory like this. As if they had welded a new/used differential to the existing axles.

      Please expound further on this welding work? Perhaps, if we agree on certain terminology, a better understanding maybe had (sorry, I need things spelled out to me ): the Ford 9 inch unit has a cast iron differential case (containing the differential unit, ring & pinion set w/ bearings, flange, etc.), retained by ten studs & nuts w/ sealing washers into the stamped sheet metal axle housing, which accepts the axle shaft assemblies (splined & flanged axle forgings w/ studs, bearings & retainer plates) within the axle tubes of the housing, retained by fasteners.

      Where is this welding work?

      Scott.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Frango100 View Post
        The car is on the ground now and still having the drive yoke center line horizontal, while it should point upwards a little bit, to be in line with the drive shaft. Before I changed the springs, it was pointing up a bit, but that was because the upper arm rear bushings where completely worn. Now with the new bushings, the axle is forced/tilted more forward, causing the "clapper" to be more open then it was before. I will see if I can get any P/N or identification from the diff housing. The only strange thing I see is that the differential is welded to the axle. Even though it seems to be welded well, it doesnīt look to be from the factory like this. As if they had welded a new/used differential to the existing axles.
        I suspect what you are seeing is the centre 'bowl' of the axle housing which has the axle 'tubes' welded onto each side of it. The welded areas are just to each side of the 'bowl'
        A Thunderbirder from the Land of the Long White Cloud.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by scumdog View Post
          I suspect what you are seeing is the centre 'bowl' of the axle housing which has the axle 'tubes' welded onto each side of it. The welded areas are just to each side of the 'bowl'
          Yes, the weld is in between the differential housing and the axle tubes. Only on the left hand side a piece of steel is welded together on the top part, looks like a repair area.
          But I will have to look at the transmission output shaft and the differential yoke angles. I only remember that the yoke was pointing up a bit before and now its completely horizontal. Also the so called " clappers" are further open then they where before, showing that the differential is tilted a bit more forward than it was used to be. I donīt remember to have seen a torque value for the vertical bolts of the "clappers". When you put torque on those bolts, you will tilt the differential a bit, but put strain on the upper and lower control arm bushings and bolts. That doesnīt seem to be ok
          sigpicFrank
          1958 T-Bird "Trovão Rosa" - "Rose Thunder"
          Thunderbird registry #61670

          Comment


          • #50
            I didnīt take the differential apart yet, but i was looking at the external markings. The pinion support shows WAT B2, which is a standard support used on a WAR case. Is there any coding on the outside of the case to show that it is a WAR case?
            sigpicFrank
            1958 T-Bird "Trovão Rosa" - "Rose Thunder"
            Thunderbird registry #61670

            Comment


            • #51
              So I looked around on several sites regarding the Ford 9" differential. Since my differential doesnīt have the original ID tag anymore, the only way to find out that it is an original differential is by removing the third member and checking the stamping on the inside. So I did, and found it to be a WAR 4025B, which seems to be original. It indeed has LM603011-N bearing races for the carrier bearings.
              The bearings are from the brand Koyo and must have been changed at some point in time. Iīm no expert on bearings and was just wondering if the bearings need to be changed. There is a noise coming from the differential, especially while accelerating, but that can be from the ring gear, which shows quite some flaking on the teeth surfaces. Would it be wise to change all the bearings, when changing the ring and pinion gear? At least I would start with a clean sheet. I can imagine that the missing metal from the teeth will have caused wear or damage to the bearing surfaces, even though I canīt see anything special to the races or rollers.
              sigpicFrank
              1958 T-Bird "Trovão Rosa" - "Rose Thunder"
              Thunderbird registry #61670

              Comment


              • #52
                Gears and bearings are case hardened. If you see flakes of metal missing on ANY of these parts, they should be changed.

                Let me say this another way: If your bearings look good, do not change them. Bearings usually fail in only a few ways. You mentioned the first way, which we call, "delamination". That means the hardened portion is coming off. Another reason for failure is from being too tight, which causes discoloration. If no lubrication, bearings might fail as well.

                Ring gears and pinion gears are heat treated to give surface hardness. If you see that portion flaking (delaminating), that gear set should be changed.

                Sometimes one faulty part may cause other parts to fail but usually NOT in a rear end filled with heavy gear oil. Again, clean and examine each bearing and race.

                Bearings and seals are metric (and always have been). The number you found on one brand is usually found on the other brands as well. Sometimes a company will prefix the number with their initials but the 'base number' should carry over to other brands. I like checking Rock Auto because they show many brands of the same part. - Dave
                My latest project:
                CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

                "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
                --Lee Iacocca

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                • #53
                  Thanks for that Dave.
                  Just took the differential carrier completely apart his morning. The ring gear has the FoMoCo stamping on it and most probably is original, but the teeth are flacking. The pinion gear doesnīt show any brand, seems to be newer and doesnīt show wear on the teeth, but the pilot bearing side shows rough spots, as if it was fixed in a vice once. Since this side acts as a bearing race, it should be perfectly smooth. Ring gear and pinion I already wanted to change, but now I will do all the bearings as well. The pilot bearing will have suffered due to the rough areas of the pinion shaft end. Looking at the carrier bearing races, I can see signs of light wear. At least I can see where the rollers have run, so probably best to change all at once.
                  I also opened up the spool and checked the side gears and pinions. The side gears teeth are worn and show pitting. The pinion shaft shows quite heavy wear where the pinions are running. Since I heard before some rough noises coming from the differential while turning one wheel, I already bought a new side gear/pinion kit. (took advantage of a colleague going to SFO for a training).
                  Do you guys know if there is a real difference in quality of bearings between Koyo and Timken? Just checking the options with Rockauto.
                  Ahh, something else, there is a crack in the horizontal solder of the diff housing (left hand side, when looking toward the engine). It starts just where the third member attaches. This was already repaired before, hence the strange solders I had seen before. The housing is made out of several parts and welded together from the factory, but why would it crack? Would the strain, put on the axle by those strange clappers, have to do to it? I also wonder if the upper control arms are original. Does someone with a 58 has those arms loose on the bench and could measure the length of them from bushing centerline to bushing centerline?
                  sigpicFrank
                  1958 T-Bird "Trovão Rosa" - "Rose Thunder"
                  Thunderbird registry #61670

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    If it were me, I would look for a good used axle assembly. You are faces with replacing all rotating parts AND a cracked housing. The only parts left are axle shafts.

                    Again if it were me, knowing that '58 axles are scarce, I would replace with a leaf spring setup (like the ones used in '59 & '60 T-birds and a host of other Ford cars).

                    There is no sense in beating a dead horse when other options will work even better. Some of our parts places have loads of Squarebirds with leaf spring brackets. - Dave
                    My latest project:
                    CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

                    "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
                    --Lee Iacocca

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Unfortunately we donīt have a lot of classic American cars here in Brazil, so finding a suitable axle assy I think will not be that easy. Besides the fact that if there is one, it will cost a fortune.
                      sigpicFrank
                      1958 T-Bird "Trovão Rosa" - "Rose Thunder"
                      Thunderbird registry #61670

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Frango100 View Post
                        Unfortunately we donīt have a lot of classic American cars here in Brazil, so finding a suitable axle assy I think will not be that easy. Besides the fact that if there is one, it will cost a fortune.
                        IF you can confirm the housing is not bent I would just grind out where the rack is and get somebody that you know is competent to re-weld it. The 'solder' you mention will actually be weld, solder wasn't used on those housings!

                        And I feel your pain regarding parts availability and freight costs etc!

                        For example, finding a '59 or '60 Thunderbird to get the rear-end and springs from here in NZ would be impossible, I have only ever heard of ONE Squarebird being parted out over here -and that was just recently, before that there were none.
                        A Thunderbirder from the Land of the Long White Cloud.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Hi Scumdog, yes you are right, its a weld. But this is welded already from the factory and re-welded later on again. No idea why it would crack again, the third member is bolted to it and should keep it all straight.
                          I was just counting the teeth on the pinion and ring gear: 16 on the pinion and 44 on the ring gear. That makes it a 2.75 ratio.
                          Originally it came with a 3.10 ratio. (a 1 on the data plate)
                          Iīm not a racer, so wouldnīt it be better to go back to the 3.10 ratio?
                          I found some old Ford 9" axles, but all as is. They where removed from some old Fords and have all original internals, so most probably will need to have all seals and bearings be changed. And you never know the state of the ring and pinion in there. It would run somewhere in the USD 2000, so not for me.
                          sigpicFrank
                          1958 T-Bird "Trovão Rosa" - "Rose Thunder"
                          Thunderbird registry #61670

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            I checked Rockauto for the ring gear/pinion and saw that they donīt sell the 3.10 ratio. They do sell the 3.00, so that should be close enough. Or is there a good reason to put another ratio in there (just for cruising)?
                            sigpicFrank
                            1958 T-Bird "Trovão Rosa" - "Rose Thunder"
                            Thunderbird registry #61670

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Don't be afraid to use a 3.55:1. For even more torque, a 3.77:1.

                              I've used up to 4.30:1 but with an overdrive transmission. 3.9 could be ordered from the factory when the car was new but that's getting into very high rpms in highway driving. I like the 3.55 because it offers great torque in city driving and for cruising. - Dave
                              My latest project:
                              CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

                              "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
                              --Lee Iacocca

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Frango100 View Post
                                I checked Rockauto for the ring gear/pinion and saw that they donīt sell the 3.10 ratio. They do sell the 3.00, so that should be close enough. Or is there a good reason to put another ratio in there (just for cruising)?

                                3.00:1 will be OK for easy cruising.

                                I have 2.75:1 in my F100 with 429 & C6, it will still smoke the tyres and it will do 100mph in 2nd gear hence why I think even with your smaller motor and 3.00:1 gearing it will get the job done.
                                A Thunderbirder from the Land of the Long White Cloud.

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