Timing issues 430

[Djweaz]

Couple of issues that have me confused. I tried to put every single thing I did in the steps that I have done every thing.

Running issue. When I got the bird, it didn't run right. Ended up having to change plugs, wires, cap, rotor, points, condenser, vacuum advance, ignition, ignition wire, had so many issues making it seem like fuel pump, bad spark, ignition wire.

1st I changed was fuel line, as it was rubber from the fuel pump laying on the valve cover around back into the back passenger side of the carb.
2nd replaced coil, cap, rotor, points, vacuum advance(bad)
3rd I saw sparking on the #1 spark plug wire never thought of them cause they only had 30 miles on them, so I replaced them. And the plugs while I was at it. When I was installing them they wouldn't fit in length. Found out that the distributor was 180 out. Fixed it.
4th found the ignition wire was bad because I could start it and it would shut off replaced it.

After doing all these things, I didn't have much of an issue with it as long as I didn't try to do a burnout or floor it. As long as I give it light pedal from a light it was fine. I could go 80moh on the highway no problem whatsoever. If I got caught up in bumper to bumper traffic or sitting idling it would back up flood. I just drove it thru the driving season. After the season was over, first thing that came off was the carb and sent in to the shop to do a professional rebuild. I could have done it myself but I wanted to make sure that it was done properly. Basically I wanted to make sure I didn't screw up. I believe it is an Edelbrock 1406 I know it is a 600cfm and has an electric choke. Which is big enough for the 430 because that's what came factory. I figured it was an accelerator pump issue. Still has the same issue. This car starts perfectly as soon as you turn the key it is running. No cranking to get it started and it just purrs.
I am at a loss for it. The only thing that wasn't changed was the distributor(shaft).
My settings are as follows:
I was worried that the timing had slipped as a lot of the old Fords did. But It was done with the bring the piston to TDC and then check the timing line and it is exactly where it should be so I know it is in time perfectly that way and then the final part was done manually setting the distributor by hand with the vacuum advance hose off and plugged
6 degrees BTDC
Point gap is .016.
Carb screws are about 1 1/4 turn out
I forget what the spark plug gap is but it is set to factory spec.

2nd Issue.
Power windows. Both passenger sides stopped working (out of the blue). I pulled the center console to check power. Passenger rear was almost unplugged plugged it in and tried it and got nothing. So I pulled drivers sides off and passenger front worked but not back. I tested them for voltage and the passenger back one had no voltage. While moving them around the drivers door window stopped working.(no voltage) so from what I see I have one bad switch and driver door and passenger rear no voltage. This strikes me as strange because the fronts are connected from the same power source with a red with a blue line. So they should be drawing current or neither? I don't know where the 15a & 30a is hidden at. Is it behind the wall where the wires go into the hole near the gas pedal is at? I didn't spend a whole lot of time at it. Because I am stumped with both right now.

Any suggestions to either?
.

[Tbird1044]

There is a single 30A circuit breaker located on the cowl inside the engine compartment. This breaker feeds all 4 windows. There is also a circuit breaker at each window motor, which goes to ground.
Typically I have found that the contacts, inside the switch, get pitted to the point that it creates to much resistance and the windows stop working. The switches can be taken apart and the contacts cleaned.
New switches are also available from the parts houses, but they are pricey. Window motors can also go bad and again new ones are available. I'm pretty sure there is information in the TRL for bench testing and rebuild of these motors.
Nyles

[simplyconnected]

Rob, follow along with me as this is important for checking your engine timing...

Pull the driver's side (LH) valve cover off. Watch #6 valves as you hand-crank the engine (in the correct direction). First, you will see the #6 exhaust valve descend, then it will raise and the #6 intake valve will just start to move. Right when both rocker arms are dead even, STOP.

Your firing order is:
1-5-4-8-
6-3-7-2

I split it this way so you can see, when #1 is up, so is #6. (It follows, when #5 is up, so is #3 and so on...)

When those rocker arms are dead-even (you can use a straight-edge across the top of both rocker arms), #6 piston is at TDC. The valves are between exhaust and intake but both are slightly open. Right now, look at your damper pulley's timing marks. They should be dead-nuts on TDC. If the cam moved, the crank timing marks will be off. If your timing marks are off, you will need to pull the timing chain off and re-do the timing marks. If your damper shows TDC, leave everything where it is...

At this point, pull your distributor cap off and look. The rotor should point directly at #1 spark plug tower, and it also points at #6 cylinder. Many Ford distributor caps have a '1' embossed in the top.

If the rotor is not pointed at #1 spark plug tower, your distributor is off a tooth. Carefully remove the hold-down bolt, lift the distributor and turn it one tooth in the direction it should go. When setting the distributor back down the oil pump shaft may not engage and the distributor will not drop all the way. If you hold your hand on top of the distributor as you turn the crankshaft about 1/3-turn, it will drop. Keep rotating the crank until those #6 valves are again level, and re-check your rotor position.

If all is well, put your timing marks at 6-degrees BTDC, then rotate the distributor cap until the points just open. Tighten the hold-down bolt. Return your valve cover. Return the distributor cap and start the engine. It should run great.

Carb flooding can be caused by excessive fuel pressure or mal-adjusted floats.

Most electric window problems are in the switch. As said, they can be cleaned. Motors can also be disassembled and cleaned. Carefully follow our TRL instructions on window and seat motors. - Dave

[jopizz]

The carburetor mixture screws need to be adjusted with the car running. Use a vacuum gauge if you don't have the experience to do it by feel. Setting them to 1 1/4 turns isn't doing any good. That's just a factory setting so you can start the car and then tune it. What do you know about the carburetor. Does it have the correct jets and metering rods/springs. When it was rebuilt did they check all that or just use what was there. Someone may have changed those parts from what it came with. If the jets are too large it will flood out. Where is the accelerator rod set. There are three different settings. The highest one will cause more fuel to pump and could cause flooding also. Download the manual from the Edelbrock site and make sure it's adjusted according to the chart.

As for the windows remove the switch block and use jumper wires to test the functionality. If everything works that way then it's the switches. The 15 amp circuit breakers are only on the ground wires so they have nothing to do with voltage. The two front ones are above the kick panels behind the lower dash trim. The rear ones are clearly visible with the back seat bottom removed.

John

[Djweaz]

Thanks guys! Hopefully will be able to work on it again tomorrow or the next day I have a rotator cuff that is torn and is filled with RA, so it's in a sling right now letting it rest.

The carb I had the same issue with it last year so I had it rebuilt. One float bowl was gummed up and not even working. The guy hat rebuilt it said he couldn't see how the car even ran. Factory settings on the accelerator pump was in the middle. I actually put it in a different slot last year. I can't remember off the top of my head but it made a difference in it. I never really was one to get into it. But it would bog out at diffeeent times say like the evening time coming home from cruise ins. So then I thought it was the Weather. The next day it might do it during the day and run fine in the evening no rhyme or reason. But I drive it all over Tennessee as well as Kentucky and Alabama. Ran smooth on the highway 70-80moh driving it on the roads and into the cruise in not a studder as long as I drove it normal or if stuck in traffic too long then you could smell the fuel. My area of Tn near Nashville is one over that fastest growing areas in the nation so city roads back up because they weren't meant to have as much traffic. With that, the only way to know it was doing it was trying to floor it. It's just the fact that I know it's not right. And think maybe it should have more power than it does with a 430ci.

Dave I've never heard of that method before but I sure will do it just to learn it and might help me in getting it to TDC and possibly eliminate this issue.

I love this group and the help you can get from it. Maybe someday I will be able to do the exact thing to other people

[simplyconnected]

Rob, that is the method I use on every build, before I put the timing cover on. Guess you could say I learned to check from the experience of having to time the engine over again. Not any more. - Dave

[Djweaz]

I used to own a custom computer business. And found before I buttoned the case on an end user computer to boot it up and check it out. Skipping this step and not knowing it after it was up many times you had to go back in and fix something. Taking that extra step might seem like it adds time but it saves it in the long run to spend that extra 5 minutes.

[Djweaz]

Was able to get out of the sling yesterday and took it easy. I could have worked on it today, but I chose to rest it for another day. Hope to be on it tomorrow

[simplyconnected]

...Taking that extra step might seem like it adds time but it saves it in the long run to spend that extra 5 minutes.

There's another reason why I check closely. I almost always advance my cam to bring the torque curve down a bit.

Some Ford engines were de-tuned from the factory to meet EPA standards. e. g., The 460's cam was retarded nearly fifteen degrees. Replacement parts also reflected this gross error. Anyone who properly times their stock 460 will wake up sleeping Clydesdales in that engine.

I want the best performance possible for the service I build my engines to, so I make sure. I let the cam tell me what the crank timing is. - Dave

[scumdog]

There's another reason why I check closely. I almost always advance my cam to bring the torque curve down a bit.

Some Ford engines were de-tuned from the factory to meet EPA standards. e. g., The 460's cam was retarded nearly fifteen degrees. Replacement parts also reflected this gross error. Anyone who properly times their stock 460 will wake up sleeping Clydesdales in that engine.

I want the best performance possible for the service I build my engines to, so I make sure. I let the cam tell me what the crank timing is. - Dave

I advanced the cam timing on my 429 by 8 degrees (it was a stock 1970 429 with headers) but by the time the 780 Holley, Edelbrock intake, Crane roller rockers and the Isky 270 cam were thrown into the mix I'm not sure if I noticed what effect advancing the cam had!

But I concur with you Dave, those post '72 385 series were shockers, couldn't pull the skin off a custard...

[simplyconnected]

I have to explain my terminology. Normally, we reference everything from the crankshaft. This is the only true way to be correct and as you know, RH/LH is always done from the driver's viewpoint. (So, American drivers sit on the LH side AND cylinders 1-4 are on the RH side.)

When I say I advanced the cam, I am really saying I retard the crank timing. It's not confusing if you think about it. Retarding the crank will put the cam timing ahead of (before) TDC on the crank.

Another explanation: If I change cam timing by four degrees, I am really saying that the crankshaft will show eight degrees retarded when the cam is straight up. 'Straight up' is when the cam's #6 valves are dead even between the exhaust and intake, when the fuel mixture scavenges. In other words, both valves are slightly open.

We can check cam timing with the cam card as well, but I check the cam card against this valve setting, just to verify the card's accuracy. (Yes, I've had the wrong card on a cam.)

So Tom, eight crank degrees renders four cam degrees.

Ok... I've seen old timing chains stretch so much they advance the crank four degrees before they jump a tooth.

Timing chain slop can be seen with a timing light pointed at the damper pulley as the engine speed abruptly changes up and down. A new chain will give your engine quick response. e.g., Ever feel that hesitation in the gas pedal when the light turns green? A new chain removes that hesitation, just like when your engine was new. - Dave

[scumdog]

I hear you Dave.
I had a mate that builds a lot of engines come to my place and check the new cam with his degree wheel.
And I used a new Cloyes tru-roller (I think that's how they spelled it!)timing chain and gears.

I'm learning as I get older "Do it once -do it right"

Or something like that....

[simplyconnected]

Tom, you did it right. I bought my degree wheel many decades ago, when 'iSKY' cams were in vogue. The only redeeming quality to the wheel is that it's made of metal. Otherwise, anyone can download the artwork and paste it onto a piece of shirtboard. The same holds true for damper pulley graduations. (Notice the pointer I made from wire.)



This one also has a true roller chain. - Dave

[OX1]

After doing all these things, I didn't have much of an issue with it as long as I didn't try to do a burnout or floor it. As long as I give it light pedal from a light it was fine. I could go 80moh on the highway no problem whatsoever. If I got caught up in bumper to bumper traffic or sitting idling it would back up flood.
.

Mine does almost exactly the same thing, except
mine will idle all day long. It's seems purely load
based, so I don't think it is a timing chain issue
(that and idle timing with light is real smooth, not
jumping around like a loose chain would).

I need to go all through the distr timing sometime
this summer. If it does turn out to be my chain is
that bad, I will wait and pull the engine/trans in
the fall to regasket both. This thing is a rocket even
at half throttle, could live with it as is forever, if needed.

I did rebuild carb and it did nothing. I don't think it
is a fuel issue unless electric pump just can't keep up.
I moved that pump to right in front of gas tank and
rewired using larger guage wire and relay that comes
off batt.

[Djweaz]

So I got it running really good yesterday. Even actually let tire marks. Had a ping at the top so I adjusted it more and had to start again lol so I took a break and when I came back to it. It would start and die when you let off the key. So I jumpered the ignition to the coil and it started right up so stupid me made an actual wire to go across from the solenoid to the coil as soon as I started putting the power cable on and the wire from the coil to the started melting. I quickly removed the battery cable.. a buddy of mine says it sounds like the ballast resistor has gone bad. Problem is I can't find it or don't know what I am looking for. At first I thought it was the junction box on the passenger side just above the blower motor, it doesn't look like one from pictures that I looked up and the other guess was the junction box behind the master cylinder where the coil wire goes to on the bottom plug and is joined with a wire that goes to the solenoid. I've changed the old brittle wires from wire I had from the last wiring harness I did, but it still does the same thing. Starts and dies. Can't find a picture in the manual of either of them