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This I didn't know untill yesterday Oil additive

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  • #16
    We'll never agree on this. I don't see the warning labels on oil with 800 PPM of zinc: Caution: Use Only With Zinc Additive to Your Flat Tappet Engine.

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    • #17
      Zinc Dialkyldithiophosphate: Affectionately known as ZDDP, this miracle multi-purpose chemical and has been the chief anti-wear (AW), extreme pressure (EP), and anti-oxidant (AO) additive for decades. It is so effective and low cost that it is virtually irreplaceable, which is why it survives all efforts to remove phosphorus (P) from oils to protect the catalyst. With modern oils putting caps on the maximum P allowed, other additives are now being used to supplement this old standard, such as Molybdenum anti-wear compounds and ashless anti-oxidants. There are different types of ZDDPs including primaries, secondaries, and aryls, each with its own strengths & weaknesses, and the mix is balanced to the type of service the oil will see.
      https://bobistheoilguy.com/whats-in-your-motor-oil/

      Key words in bold. The extreme pressure is a cam on a flat tappet. The "other additives are now being used" aren't able to supply the need for this extreme pressure mechanism.

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      • #18
        Two words
        Mobil One

        I run full synth in everything, new & old
        my 94 S-10 191K mi, the TBird our RV
        when we had it.
        I run Amsoil 2050 in the Harley's
        Each veh gets an oil change pet yr, weather it
        needs it or not. My wife's Saturn gets 2, because it
        goes10-12K per yr.
        Gone are the days of Dyno oil & Eng Oil Supl (the GM term
        for the zink adative- except for break-in)
        John Byers
        1960 Convertible (Orig owner)
        sigpic

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        • #19
          Somehow I think many of you are missing the point of ZDDP.
          Why do cam companies INSIST on using their lube?
          • Cam lobes are hit and miss when it comes to lubrication.
          • Cam break-in grease is HIGH in ZDDP.
          • If the cam got a regular bath of oil, the break-in lube would simply wash away.

          A thin film of ZDDP is a 'last ditch' effort to lubricate in the absence of oil flow. Since modern oil formulations drastically reduced ZDDP, 'regular oil' no longer works in classic engines. If you don't believe it, go ahead and run whatever you think is good. You will be buying a cam and lifter set soon. I just replaced one from a 1970 LTD 351W that was really bad. I replaced it with a roller cam. Now, it can run regular 10W-30 dinosaur oil. - Dave
          My latest project:
          CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

          "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
          --Lee Iacocca

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          • #20
            Okay, I'm just on the other side of the fence. I agree that re-built and new flat tappet engines need the protection of zinc for break-in. Throw in race engines with flat tappets, too. But until I see the mountain of engines destroyed by modern oils, I think it's an urban legend. Modern oils provide adequate protection because these have other additives. I will agree that oil with additional zinc is the best way to go if you agree with this philosophy, as zinc oil additives may just settle to the bottom of the pan.

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            • #21
              I ran-in the cam in the 429 in my F100 using the cam lube provided by Isky and since then I have always used Castrol GTX 20-50.
              I put that cam in about 15 years or so back.

              I use that oil in the Thunderbird and any older motors I have. (Which is just about all my vehicles - except for the Harley!).
              A Thunderbirder from the Land of the Long White Cloud.

              Comment


              • #22
                Oils

                Hi Dean, just on a curious note I saw your profile & you're a young 28, but don't know your line of work background.
                I am not saying that you are right, or wrong, but where have you obtained your information from? Please let us know, that way we can say yes, you have a valid point or not.
                I also use 20W-50 (PENRITE).

                Thank you

                Chris......From OZ.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Dean, this isn't about 'whose brand of oil is best' or 'how much experience you have'. The problem with ZDDP is well documented across ALL classic car lines.

                  I suggest you reference the internet and read the experience from GM and Chrysler classic car guys (as well as Ford). You will find your mountain of engines.

                  GM sold oil additive through their dealerships and it was wildly popular. Then they stopped. Classic car guys bought as many cases as they could until it was quickly gone. Correct oil for classic engines is scarce and as such it is expensive. These members are offering their best solutions to help you, not to argue the point.

                  Sometimes you just need to experience things for yourself. Good luck. - Dave
                  My latest project:
                  CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

                  "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
                  --Lee Iacocca

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Hey Chris, where did you get 28? I'm retired and have been a gear head all my life. I'm much more familiar with Chevrolet, C3 and C5 Corvettes and now current Charger/Challenger RT's. My 1960 Squarebird has been a learning experience since the first car I really got to know was a solid lifter '71 Z28. Fabulous looking POS. Too bad I didn't have the money to spend on it at the time. It was many years ahead of 1958 technology. Here's just one link referencing ZDDP: http://www.allpar.com/old/oils.php. BTW, I use 10W-30 because I think my engine likes soup and not stew. Dave, I promise to shut up.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      GM still offers EOS. It's Part # 88862587. The formula has changed. It does not have the orig zinc content. Some EPA brainiac found that the zinc in the oil could cause cat/converter damage.

                      The orig was good stuff. Years ago, I had a 72 El Camino
                      I would change the oil every 5K.4 qts 20/50, and 1 pint of EOS. The orig eng ran 243K miles. It was still running when I took it out. The crankshaft thrust brg was gone and I think the pistons were trading holes, but she was runnin.

                      I'm still a firm believer of todays full synth oil. I run it in everything.



                      Originally posted by simplyconnected View Post
                      Dean, this isn't about 'whose brand of oil is best' or 'how much experience you have'. The problem with ZDDP is well documented across ALL classic car lines.

                      I suggest you reference the internet and read the experience from GM and Chrysler classic car guys (as well as Ford). You will find your mountain of engines.

                      GM sold oil additive through their dealerships and it was wildly popular. Then they stopped. Classic car guys bought as many cases as they could until it was quickly gone. Correct oil for classic engines is scarce and as such it is expensive. These members are offering their best solutions to help you, not to argue the point.

                      Sometimes you just need to experience things for yourself. Good luck. - Dave
                      John Byers
                      1960 Convertible (Orig owner)
                      sigpic

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Deanj View Post
                        Hey Chris, where did you get 28? I'm retired and have been a gear head all my life. I'm much more familiar with Chevrolet, C3 and C5 Corvettes and now current Charger/Challenger RT's. My 1960 Squarebird has been a learning experience since the first car I really got to know was a solid lifter '71 Z28. Fabulous looking POS. Too bad I didn't have the money to spend on it at the time. It was many years ahead of 1958 technology. Here's just one link referencing ZDDP: http://www.allpar.com/old/oils.php. BTW, I use 10W-30 because I think my engine likes soup and not stew. Dave, I promise to shut up.
                        Dean,

                        You are welcome to express your opinion based on your experience just like everyone else. Don't feel that you have to "shut up" because someone else has a different opinion than yours. It's up to each individual to do their own research and determine who's opinions are right or wrong.

                        John
                        John Pizzi - Squarebirds Administrator

                        Thunderbird Registry #36223
                        jopizz@verizon.net 856-779-9695

                        http://www.squarebirds.org/picture_gallery/TechnicalResourceLibrary/trl.htm

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Thanks John. I was just teasing Dave because you guys are the experts, and I'm new to cars that I only bought in 1/25th plastic at the time. I find both pro and con on ZDDP as to whether it's imperative to vintage engines. I would think oil companies would desire backward compatibility and make todays oils safe for flat tappet engines. They're keeping some ZDDP, but less than the likes of 15 years ago, and so it has value. Wouldn't backward compatibility make sense?

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Deanj View Post
                            Thanks John. I was just teasing Dave because you guys are the experts, and I'm new to cars that I only bought in 1/25th plastic at the time. I find both pro and con on ZDDP as to whether it's imperative to vintage engines. I would think oil companies would desire backward compatibility and make todays oils safe for flat tappet engines. They're keeping some ZDDP, but less than the likes of 15 years ago, and so it has value. Wouldn't backward compatibility make sense?
                            Like everything else these days the government determines how much phosphorus can be put in motor oil because of potential damage to catalytic converters. The oil companies are basically at their mercy.

                            John
                            John Pizzi - Squarebirds Administrator

                            Thunderbird Registry #36223
                            jopizz@verizon.net 856-779-9695

                            http://www.squarebirds.org/picture_gallery/TechnicalResourceLibrary/trl.htm

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              I'm with John. The reason for an open forum is for everyone to scrutinize opinions and come up with what they think is right for their situation.

                              Coming from automotive manufacturing (Ford Motor Co.,) I also confirm John's statement about government standards. The reason we get good gas mileage with cleaner air and maximum safety is because government standards DEMAND it. The reason for fuel and oil reformulation is not covered in your article but we know it is because of government regulations.

                              Engine engineering, changes and retooling is expensive and not taken lightly by stock holders. Profits and competition rule the industry. Changes in standards upset both.

                              The article is a see-saw that supports ZDDP arguments for both sides but their convenient disclaimer is that old engines are impossible to test simply because they are not in production. So, modern testing is ONLY done on engines 'in production'.

                              "Have any of the oil companies or auto builders tested specifically for 40, 50, 60 year old engines? Of course not. But they have tested for, and are continuously testing, for cam and lifter wear. Is this to say that we will not suffer damage in those areas in the future? Again, of course not, but we have to go with the best information that we currently have. And frankly, SM oil, with reduced zinc and phosphorus has only been around for less than two years. No one has tested adequately, and under controlled conditions (to our knowledge), for excess wear with our older engines under SM oils. It would take a lot of driving for that much wear to occur in just a couple of years, and then there is no scientific evidence that the lack of zinc/phosphorus specifically was responsible for any damage that might have occured."

                              There IS scientific evidence called, history. The issue of ZDDP came up because cams were failing when in the past they didn't.

                              Always consult the OWNER'S MANUAL. Mine says:
                              Change Engine Oil "For Service MS," S.A.E. 20 or 20W above 32F, S.A.E. 10W from32to—10F, S.A.E.5W below—10F.

                              MS service is, Motor Severe. API dropped this designation so long ago it doesn't appear on the API site archives. Also notice, there is no 'detergent' spec., because detergent and multi-viscosity oils were rare in 1958. These are ALL STRAIGHT WEIGHT oils. The problem is, these engines were designed to burn gasoline that we can't get and there is no cross-reference to MS oil. So, we correctly depend on engine builders, not car manufacturers, to guide our choices in oils for classic engines. - Dave
                              My latest project:
                              CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

                              "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
                              --Lee Iacocca

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Correction on your age Dean. Wouldn't it be nice to be that age again.

                                Chris.....From OZ.

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