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  • #46
    casting #'s

    Originally posted by YellowRose View Post
    Hi Tommy, Sorry I did not think of this sooner. The B0 number could not possibly be correct, because there was no B0 number for Tbirds. B5-B9, yes, but 0 would have been a C0 series. So yes, you had the numbers reversed. The research I just did says that the C3SE9430B is the right hand exhaust manifold for a 390 1963 Tbird, the C3S says C=1960's, the 3=1963 and the S=Thunderbird. The left hand side is the C3SE9431B, which is what you should find on it when you look. I also read and have seen these advertised as being used on the 63-64 Galaxie.

    So you have a 390 1972 light to medium truck engine, with 390 1963 Tbird exhaust manifolds. From the sound of what has been said about it, you have a good engine. You probably have, as indicated by that tranny tag, a heavy duty tranny that was used with the 430MEL engine. As Gary said, you need to measure the length of it to see what you get. Or look for more casting numbers, and get ALL the information off the tranny tag, if you have not already done so. You probably have a HX type tranny.

    I am going to post the pix here on where to measure your tranny to help determine what you have. The tag on the tranny should have said 430 off to the left side of the tag. The right side should say PBB, as it does, also indicating it is a tranny used with the 430MEL engine, followed by a series of numbers or letters, which it does. A PBL designator indicates it was a tranny used with the 352 engine. There are other markings or castings you should look for also, like a 3 digit casting that will tell you when it was made. So a previous owner must have decided that he wanted a heavier duty tranny with that truck engine and went the HX 430MEL route.

    As you will see by the one pic that a 1958-1960 HX 3-speed will have a measurement of HX 10 7/8" between the areas marked "A". A 1961 and on HX will be 11.6" in that same area. I hope this helps.

    I thought I had these two pix in the Technical Resource Library, but didn't. I do now. To zoom in on them use Ctrl + on your keyboard.
    Hi Ray, thanks for the research when I go back up on 19th I will do some more research and find all the #'s. Now when I was trying to get a fuel pump one of the pumps that fit was a 1963 galaxie 390. Now i'm thinking that it is a 390 63 galaxie because those #'s were on the block. I think they put the D2TE AA heads on for the induction hardened seats. Those heads are a late production the double A is one of the last production put on the FE. Ford trucks started using induction hardened heads in 1975-76 they also have 3/8" valve stems, they are decent heads high velocity flow for efficiency, but be careful because if the heads had a valve job prior you could loose some of the hardness.Thank you all for trying to help me, and I will post more as soon as I find out. Tommy"

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    • #47
      New member, Tommy with 59 t-bird

      Earlier this evening, Tommy and I were hashing these casting numbers out. After going over them and their location it appears that he may have a 1963 Tbird 390 engine, with 1972 Truck heads. Part of the problem he was running into was using a mirror to try and get readings from hard to get to locations. A couple of times, it appears he had the numbers reversed. For example, C3SE9430B he had as B0349ES3C, and 3H6 as 6H3.

      Here is a compilation of numbers he has seen so far on the engine.

      C3SE6T3 - Engine Block Casting # = C=1960's, 3=1963, S=Thunderbird, E=Engine Group, 6T3?(Don't know what that is)
      3H6 - Build Date on Engine Block - 3=1963 H=August 6=6th
      C3SE9430B - RH Exhaust Manifold - C3S=1963 Tbird
      I am assuming that the LH Exhaust Manifold is a:
      C3SE9431B - LH Exhaust Manifold - C3S=1963 Tbird
      D2TE AA = Head casting # - D=1970's, 2=1972, E=Engine Group

      So the heads might be from a 1972 Light/Medium Truck, but the engine block seems to be from a 1963 Tbird. Someone correct me if I am barking up the wrong tree... You guys know more about these part # and casting # breakdowns than I do.

      Ray Clark - Squarebirds Administrator
      '59 Tbird "The Yellow Rose Of Texas" aka "Tweety Bird"
      "It's Hip To Be Square"
      Thunderbird Registry #33025 VTCI #11178

      Contact me via Private Message for my email address, or (Cell) 210-875-1411 (Home) 210-674-5781

      http://www.squarebirds.org/picture_gallery/TechnicalResourceLibrary/trl.htm

      Comment


      • #48
        oil filter location

        Originally posted by simplyconnected View Post
        I spoke with Tom tonight and I find him to be very pleasant and knowledgeable regarding Ford engines and transmissions. Tom is VERY happy with his engine and transmission and excited to learn more about his unique setup.

        As you all suspected, Tom has a light truck 390 (TE) from the early 70's. His stroke is longer than 3.5" which makes it a 390. Remember, 390s and 427s used the same Crankshaft; the only difference is bore diameters. FE parts were designed to be interchanged with the goal of making your engine specific to your application be it for car, boat, construction equipment, etc.

        Truck pulleys and T-bird pulleys are different lengths. His engine and heads were truck, and the timing cover, pulleys and final dress are T-bird or Galaxie. That would explain why his Expansion Tank looks different, with the fill neck off to the side instead of on top.

        Tom is very impressed with how smooth his engine runs. To me, that indicates someone did a good rebuild and not too long ago.

        Tom's Fuel Pump broke. The parts counter guys couldn't find the correct part (for a Squarebird engine). They went through the years and found it matched a '72 Fairlane. That confirms our suspicions as his Timing Cover has the Fuel Pump mounting holes in a lower place.

        John, I read that about the "flame hardened" valve seats. The problem isn't just the seats. It's also with the valves. Modern cars use stainless valves which cannot weld themselves to the seat material. I showed one pic of the '73 TE head. To pass fair judgment here are the remaining nine with a pic of both heads:

        http://squarebirds.org/Engine/FE-Valves/DSCN0269.jpg
        http://squarebirds.org/Engine/FE-Valves/DSCN0270.jpg
        http://squarebirds.org/Engine/FE-Valves/DSCN0271.jpg
        http://squarebirds.org/Engine/FE-Valves/DSCN0272.jpg
        http://squarebirds.org/Engine/FE-Valves/DSCN0273.jpg
        http://squarebirds.org/Engine/FE-Valves/DSCN0274.jpg
        http://squarebirds.org/Engine/FE-Valves/DSCN0276.jpg
        http://squarebirds.org/Engine/FE-Valves/DSCN0277.jpg
        http://squarebirds.org/Engine/FE-Valves/DSCN0278.jpg
        http://squarebirds.org/Engine/FE-Valves/DSCN0279.jpg

        I don't know how anyone can 'harden' nodular cast iron because it has over 2% carbon and no grain structure. It's already so hard it's brittle. They chipped off core 'flash' with air hammers at the Dearborn Iron Foundry. Dozens of workers worked on the Chipping Lines and pieces of iron chips went flying everywhere. Everyone gladly wore ear muffs and safety goggles. I remember one guy's job was to stick a board in a bore and flip the blocks over as they traveled to the next guy.
        Hi Dave, I got thinking and you would probably know more about this. My oil filter is located drivers side in the rear of block and is of small size filter and vertical. If I remember right the filters on car 390 were lg. and towards the front and horizontal. I don't know i'm just at a stand still until I get more #'s. Any thoughts much appreciated. Thanks Tommy"

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        • #49
          Can you tell if there is an adapter on there to move the filter to a different location. All FE engines have the oil filter opening on the driver's side front. I do know of adapters that you can install to change where the filter is similar to this one

          John
          Attached Files
          John Pizzi - Squarebirds Administrator

          Thunderbird Registry #36223
          jopizz@verizon.net 856-779-9695

          http://www.squarebirds.org/picture_gallery/TechnicalResourceLibrary/trl.htm

          Comment


          • #50
            oil filter location

            Originally posted by jopizz View Post
            Can you tell if there is an adapter on there to move the filter to a different location. All FE engines have the oil filter opening on the driver's side front. I do know of adapters that you can install to change where the filter is similar to this one

            John
            Hi John, there is an adapter on the drivers side rear and filter screws into it and is the small screw on filter and it is vertical. I didn't notice any other plates up front on side, It might have one I really wasn't looking for it but I just remembered the location of filter and didn't know if it would help to identify the engine. Thanks Tommy"

            Comment


            • #51
              oil filter adapter

              Originally posted by jopizz View Post
              Can you tell if there is an adapter on there to move the filter to a different location. All FE engines have the oil filter opening on the driver's side front. I do know of adapters that you can install to change where the filter is similar to this one

              John
              John that is exactly what it looks like but it is straight up and down and in rear. Tommy"

              Comment


              • #52
                If you can get us a picture or two that would help. You definitely have an FE motor. Your intake manifold and valve covers will only fit FE motors. The only question is what year. I've seen later model truck motors both 360 and 390 and have never seen the oil filter in the rear.

                John
                John Pizzi - Squarebirds Administrator

                Thunderbird Registry #36223
                jopizz@verizon.net 856-779-9695

                http://www.squarebirds.org/picture_gallery/TechnicalResourceLibrary/trl.htm

                Comment


                • #53
                  oil filter location

                  Originally posted by jopizz View Post
                  If you can get us a picture or two that would help. You definitely have an FE motor. Your intake manifold and valve covers will only fit FE motors. The only question is what year. I've seen later model truck motors both 360 and 390 and have never seen the oil filter in the rear.

                  John
                  John i'm not going up to the bird until the 19th then I will register it and drive her to my parents house and believe me I will get every # I can and take pictures. It is just driving me crazy not knowing exactly what I have. Thanks for your help. Tommy"

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    oil filter location

                    Hi everyone, MY BAD" I enlarged the photo of engine an noticed the oil sending unit left side up front so the filter is where it is supposed to be with an adaptor plate 90 degree angle and small screw on filter. That was driving me crazy!!! I also know that it does not have the threading in the block for alternator. The alternator is mounted low and looks factory. I know t-bird and Galaxie came through with an alternator in 1963 and the rest followed in 1965. The engine is also painted black which changed I think in 65 or 66. The more I find makes me think it is a 63 390 t-bird or galaxie, with the light truck heads. I will know for sure after this weekend.It runs absolutely beautiful I just want to know what it all is. I apologize for misleading everyone I will post info and pictures as soon as I know. Thanks for all your help. Tommy"

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      casting #'s

                      Hi all, I finally have my bird at my mom's house. I didn't have a lot of time and the weather wasn't co-operating. Ok here's what I found. There is webbing on both sides of engine and the block has 4 holes for a 4 bolt motor mt.. The date by oil filter has a w with 1 flat screw head on each side, under is date code hard to make out first# looks like 8M13 the 8 could be a 3 or 5 couldn't tell. Left side of block has 55-DIF. up front l/side is a 6 and below is 352. On the r/side front of engine is LMP below that is 111848 then below that is 4005 or S. Oil drain plug is drivers side towards the rear just short of corner. Freeze out plugs measured 1&1/2" that's all I could find on engine. Now tranny case measured around 11" on case. Pan was close to 10x12" with a little bump left side of center in rear. #'s off tranny 9M 7006 dif 5 3M13 other # I might have backwards 9ME 7006 A the dip stick goes into pan on center of passenger side with a large nut holding in tube. Cast bell and cast case aluminum tail shaft. That's all I could get this trip thanks in advance for any help. Tommy"PS. just noticed that date code on tranny and engine if the 8 is a 3 are the same. Don't know if that helps i'm losing it. LOl"

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        From my research the reinforcement webs were only used on '73 and '74 truck engines. The four bolt motor mount also indicates it is a truck engine or FT engine. If the date code is 8M13 that would be December 13, 1978 which doesn't seem right. It's more than likely 3M13 which would be December 13, 1973. It could be a 330, 361 or 391. There's no way to tell without measuring the stroke. The 352 stamping is normal.

                        John
                        John Pizzi - Squarebirds Administrator

                        Thunderbird Registry #36223
                        jopizz@verizon.net 856-779-9695

                        http://www.squarebirds.org/picture_gallery/TechnicalResourceLibrary/trl.htm

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          New member, Tommy with 59 t-bird

                          Tommy, when you get a chance get a better measurement on that center case section of the tranny. A Large case measures 10 7/8" for a 1958-1960 Tranny. A 1961-1965 Large case tranny measures 11.6". Hopefully, someone will be able to tell you which tranny you have from the numbers. If it is a 430 tranny, the tag on the drivers side should have said 430 on the left side of the tag and the number on the right side.

                          Ray Clark - Squarebirds Administrator
                          '59 Tbird "The Yellow Rose Of Texas" aka "Tweety Bird"
                          "It's Hip To Be Square"
                          Thunderbird Registry #33025 VTCI #11178

                          Contact me via Private Message for my email address, or (Cell) 210-875-1411 (Home) 210-674-5781

                          http://www.squarebirds.org/picture_gallery/TechnicalResourceLibrary/trl.htm

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            casting #

                            Originally posted by jopizz View Post
                            From my research the reinforcement webs were only used on '73 and '74 truck engines. The four bolt motor mount also indicates it is a truck engine or FT engine. If the date code is 8M13 that would be December 13, 1978 which doesn't seem right. It's more than likely 3M13 which would be December 13, 1973. It could be a 330, 361 or 391. There's no way to tell without measuring the stroke. The 352 stamping is normal.

                            John
                            Hi john, I did measure the stroke and it's 3-7/8" so i'm thinking 390 unless it's a 391. I think your right about the date. I'm wondering if it still has the low cr. I do know it was rebuilt all new freeze out plugs pan bolts etc. The heads are 68.1-71.1 cc so i'm going to do a compression test and see what I have . I think I can get an idea if it's over 150 it probabaly has a 9-9.5 165 and up 9.5-10.5 and 100-120 lbs, probably 8-8.5, correct me if i'm wrong i'm just trying to get an idea. Thanks Tommy"

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                            • #59
                              cruiso

                              Originally posted by YellowRose View Post
                              Tommy, when you get a chance get a better measurement on that center case section of the tranny. A Large case measures 10 7/8" for a 1958-1960 Tranny. A 1961-1965 Large case tranny measures 11.6". Hopefully, someone will be able to tell you which tranny you have from the numbers. If it is a 430 tranny, the tag on the drivers side should have said 430 on the left side of the tag and the number on the right side.
                              Hi Ray, there was no tag or plate on the tranny but I just rechecked my measurements and I was over 11"close to 11 & 1/2". Thanks Tommy"

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by tommy cruise View Post
                                Hi john, I did measure the stroke and it's 3-7/8" so i'm thinking 390 unless it's a 391. I think your right about the date. I'm wondering if it still has the low cr. I do know it was rebuilt all new freeze out plugs pan bolts etc. The heads are 68.1-71.1 cc so i'm going to do a compression test and see what I have . I think I can get an idea if it's over 150 it probabaly has a 9-9.5 165 and up 9.5-10.5 and 100-120 lbs, probably 8-8.5, correct me if i'm wrong i'm just trying to get an idea. Thanks Tommy"
                                My guess is that it's a 391 which had a compression ration of 8:1.

                                John
                                John Pizzi - Squarebirds Administrator

                                Thunderbird Registry #36223
                                jopizz@verizon.net 856-779-9695

                                http://www.squarebirds.org/picture_gallery/TechnicalResourceLibrary/trl.htm

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