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More on the 430 T-Bird's Vacuum Check Valve

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  • More on the 430 T-Bird's Vacuum Check Valve

    Unbelievable!

    What are we looking at?

    Two styles of 430 Lincoln check valve tubes used to run vacuum from the internal vacuum pump which piggyback’s on the internal oil pump and supplements the wiper motor with vacuum.

    The Check valves are both the same. One is a brass 90 and corroded check valve and a broken tube that rusted into two pieces. The second tube that resembles it is a tube I made to copy it. See the photo of an actual line in place on a 430 photo below mounted on a 430.


    http://www.rhyner.com/59jbird/photos/CHECKVALVE4.JPG
    http://www.rhyner.com/59jbird/photos/CHECKVALVE5.JPG

    TOP and MIDDLE lines in the photo of all 3 lines I will call TYPE 1

    http://www.rhyner.com/59jbird/photos/CHECKVALVE1.JPG

    I just bought a tube and working check valve in Canada and was shocked to see it is completely different from two other tubes I have seen.

    http://www.rhyner.com/59jbird/photos/CHECKVALVE2.JPG

    The second tube in not only smaller in diameter, it is longer. The tube connects to the same bolt on the bell housing however it is NOT INTENDED TO BE USED WITH THE BRASS 90 DEGREE FITTING. Note the check valves are mounted 90 degrees differently. The only documentation I have found for this check valve in my 1959 THUNDERBIRD SERVICE MANUAL is located on page 1-52 Figure 8 which shows what appears to be the check valve screwed directly into the engine block and call this one TYPE 2. (see photo below, BOTTOM line)

    It appears the valve was mounted in two different ways and according to the limited information I have, the correct way for a 430 Squarebird is the valve directly into the block. (see photo from FoMoCo Service manual below)

    http://www.rhyner.com/59jbird/photos/CHECKVALVE3.JPG

    CHECK VALVE PART NUMBERS on the valve are:

    10
    P-85597-1




  • #2
    RE: More on the 430 T-Bird's Vacuum Check Valve

    My 430 has the valve screwed directly into the engine, no brass fitting. The previous owner/restorer states thats they way he found it, he was second owner. Where did you find check valve and tubing?

    Comment


    • #3
      RE: More on the 430 T-Bird's Vacuum Check Valve

      That agrees with the 59 Service manual however I have seen 2 identical tubes for 430's from 2 diffrent sources for the type 1 but they were lincoln's.

      The source is Mike from the Lincoln Forum and he's in Canada.

      Comment


      • #4
        WATCH OUT! Another Brain Storm...

        This is just conjecture J, but the mounting angles may have had something to do with how the engine was installed in the chassis. You had MEL forward mount and mid mount models (engine supports) and the differences (angle fitting to keep the supply tube closer to the engine) may be there.

        One would need the first issues of the appropriate MPC as parts are superseceded (design change or obsoleted) (due to low demand), the catalog is usually updated to not show origional information.

        To me, the angle mount would be more advantageous as it allows for less component vibration and chance of damage from running over something, say.

        Comment


        • #5
          RE: WATCH OUT! Another Brain Storm...

          Could be but the mount in the top photo is located in the same place as the mount on my 430 T-Bird and even looks like the same pad but you are correct. There is a difference and a reason for the difference. Could it be exhaust pipe bends due to cross member location?

          Walter's tube was the same as the tube in the photo of the 430 above. Identicle right down to the spot welds on the mounting tab. The tube I bought from Mike is for a T-Bird style mounting as 430MEL says his is mounted. The other one must be for Lincolns.

          Comment


          • #6
            Dang it, I hate working this hard! There appear to be a

            There are various flavors! It appears that 58-60 Lincoln and Merc used one style, 59/60 Tbird and some 58 Mercs used another. The part numbers seem to be:

            B7A-9328-A Valve (vacuum pump check) 1958 Lincoln Mercury
            B9S-9328-A Valve (vacuum pump check) 1959/1960 Lincoln Mercury Thunderbird
            EDG-17536-C Tube Windshield Wiper Tube (on motor) 58 Mercury 383 w/std trans 59/60 Thunderbird
            EDG-16978-A Tube Windshield Wiper Hose tube and clip assy 24" long 58/59 Mercury auto trans exc 2 door and 4 door sedan 58/59/60 Lincoln
            372268-S elbow 58/59 Mercury exc 2 door and 4 door sedan 58/59/60 Lincoln.

            What this all means is 58 Merc with a stick shift and 58/9 Tbirds did not use an elbow and used a different tube. 58-60 Lincoln and Mercury's exc merc stick shift and sedans (because sedans had a 312 instead of an MEL) used an elbow with the associated tube. I will tell you this was not fun to research as the tubes were obsolete quickly and service was to make something! Note I have re-edited this for clarity. Hawkrod

            Comment


            • #7
              RE: Dang it, I hate working this hard! There appear to

              Thanks Hawkrod59 for all that hard work!

              It confirms I shouldn't use the tube I made from Walter's template nor use the brass fitting on my 59 T-Bird. It's things like that that get noticed right away at shows, long before the numbers are checked.

              I'll be putting the check valve directly into the block and using the 1/4 inch tube instead of the 5/16ths inch Lincoln tube. If anyone needs dimentions from the T-Bird tube, I am working on a drawing which I will pdf for 430 Bird owners so they can make a tube if their's is missing.

              Comment


              • #8
                RE: Dang it, I hate working this hard! There appear to

                Have you considered making these? Hard to find items like this can be a money maker. I'll bet you could sell a ton at $20 plus shipping or so. You have both styles and so you have the whole market covered! Hawkrod (and no, I have not crawled under my cars to see if I have one, I have been way too busy! LOL)

                Comment


                • #9
                  RE: Dang it, I hate working this hard! There appear to

                  >There are various flavors! It appears that 58-60 Lincoln and
                  >Merc used one style, 59/60 Tbird and some 58 Mercs used
                  >another. The part numbers seem to be:
                  >
                  >B7A-9328-A Valve (vacuum pump check) 1958 Lincoln Mercury
                  >B9S-9328-A Valve (vacuum pump check) 1959/1960 Lincoln
                  >Mercury Thunderbird
                  >EDG-17536-C Tube Windshield Wiper Tube (on motor) 58 Mercury
                  >383 w/std trans 59/60 Thunderbird
                  >EDG-16978-A Tube Windshield Wiper Hose tube and clip assy
                  >24" long 58/59 Mercury auto trans exc 2 door and 4 door
                  >sedan 58/59/60 Lincoln
                  >372268-S elbow 58/59 Mercury exc 2 door and 4 door sedan
                  >58/59/60 Lincoln.

                  >Hawkrod

                  Hawrod,

                  Below is some information I offered earlier from the 60/64 FORD MPC;

                  "I was just going through the 60/64 FORD MPC and something caught my eye that may interest you. I stumbled across the information for the intake manifold source of vacuum, Basic PN 17536. There was a line available for service;

                  17536 Tube (Vacuum To Windshield Wiper Motor Hose)

                  60S (BIRD) (8cyl. 430) 6.23" long- 1/4" tubing * (no PN-denotes no longer serviced) cut from 91A 2269 (which is bulk brake line tubing)

                  60S (430 engine) Elbow (tube to intake manifold) - 90 degree angle-

                  353208-S

                  60S (430 engine) Nut 7/16"- 24 (1/4" inverted flared)

                  87943-S8"

                  The B7A 9328-A Check Valve was inline and had to be used with the base 312 if it is showing in the LINC-MERC MPC (have no idea why it is listed under LINC also).

                  B9S 9328-A had to be dedicated MEL useage, most likely a supersceded PN from 1958 (IMO) (I cannot vision the changing of the valve design-just positioning).




                  Comment


                  • #10
                    RE: Dang it, I hate working this hard! There appear to

                    Not really of much interest to me in the context of this thread. The cumulative parts books are often full of deletions and errors and will list things that were still or last available and not older things long deleted. I use the yearly parts books rather than the cumulative ones. Because this discussion was regarding the tube on the side of the engine, I did not include the information about top of the engine hardware. I am not quite sure what you mean by this: "The B7A 9328-A Check Valve was inline and had to be used with the base 312 if it is showing in the LINC-MERC MPC (have no idea why it is listed under LINC also)." The parts books for 59 and older are all seperate divisions There is a Lincoln Book, a Mercury book, and a Ford book. All three show this part. This part is the only check valve shown for 1958 Lincoln's and 1958 Mercury's. I do not remember it on my 57 Tbird but I have to question whether or not it really is an inline valve. It is very possible that it was originally threaded and changed at some point but the 1958 books (printed in 1957) list this as the correct part for these cars with 430 Lincoln/Mercury, 383 Mercury, and 312 Ford engines. Hawkrod

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      RE: Dang it, I hate working this hard! There appear to

                      >Not really of much interest to me in the context of this
                      >thread.



                      Thanks for the research regardless...

                      > I am not quite sure what you mean by this:

                      >"The B7A 9328-A Check Valve was inline and had to be used
                      >with the base 312 if it is showing in the LINC-MERC MPC
                      >(have no idea why it is listed under LINC also)."

                      >This part is the only check valve shown for
                      >1958 Lincoln's and 1958 Mercury's. I do not remember it on
                      >my 57 Tbird but I have to question whether or not it really
                      >is an inline valve. It is very possible that it was
                      >originally threaded and changed at some point but the 1958
                      >books (printed in 1957) list this as the correct part for
                      >these cars with 430 Lincoln/Mercury, 383 Mercury, and 312
                      >Ford engines. Hawkrod

                      B7A was 1957 FORD. An oil pump attached vacuum pump was not used until 1958 and only on certain MEL applications. A previous discussion brought this to the boards' attention. This valve had to be inline somewheres within the vacuum line from the two stage pump to the wiper motor (312 base engine).

                      Not all 1958 LINC-MERC had the vacuum pump as some were assembled with electric wipers. But, they had vacuum servos to operate heat-A/C. Maybe the check valve was used here in some capacity on the manifold vacuum signal?

                      What does your ILL Section show?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        RE: Dang it, I hate working this hard! There appear to

                        I realize now you are making an assumption. Just because a car used a part or a part was designed for a specific car does not mean that was all it was used for. Yes, the valve has a 57 part number but that does not stop it from being used on a 58 on a different engine size or for a different purpose. The best example of this that I can give would be B7A-12106-A distributor caps that were used until about 1976 or so. Trust me when I tell you that a 460 was not yet thought of in 1957 but the distributor cap is still the same! The valve may have been designed for a 57 Ford for one application but also used for something else on a 58 Lincoln. We know that a 57 312 did not have an oil pump driven vacuum pump but we also know that the B7A valve was used for that application on a 58 Lincoln. The 58 illustration does show the valve as being threaded. Note that this valve was only used on 1957 312's with superchargers and not on regular 312's. The 312 had this valve screwed into the back of the intake manifold before the booster pump. It is just a check valve for vacuum and would be equally at home on an oil pump driven vacuum pump as it would be on a manifold vacuum operated system. BTW, you really made me dig for this one! I knew I did not remember that valve on my Tbird! Hawkrod

                        [img src="http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/439590/fullsize/dsc00189.jpg"]

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          RE: Dang it, I hate working this hard! There appear to

                          >I realize now you are making an assumption. Just because a
                          >car used a part or a part was designed for a specific car
                          >does not mean that was all it was used for.

                          OK....Thanks for researching that out. I do not have the early MPC's to go as far as you can. A member here called a vendor and it was stated the B7A was used only on the F-CODE 57 (even though catalog listing included 1958). I had no idea a valve as such was used. I assumed it had to be an inline to work with the tubing on the two-stage pump. I was wrong. The 58 valve may be able to be used for later applications also. Did text give you thread sizes?

                          >Yes, the valve
                          >has a 57 part number but that does not stop it from being
                          >used on a 58 on a different engine size or for a different
                          >purpose. The best example of this that I can give would be
                          >B7A-12106-A distributor caps that were used until about 1976
                          >or so.

                          Hawkrod,

                          I worked parts in dealerships for I don't know how many years. I am fully aware of how the system works.

                          Service replacement for B7A 12106-A was D5AZ 12106-A. I can remember that one off the top of my head.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            RE: Dang it, I hate working this hard! There appear to

                            I have over 200 Ford parts books so it may take a while to find the right one but I have it! I am confused where you say "the 58 valve". the 58 used the 57 valve and then in 59 they came out with a new one. The B7A valve did not go obsolete until late 69 and there was no replacement which usually means no demand on a part like that. The B9S valve was available even longer! It is amazing how some of this stuff was out there until we needed it. While you and I are the primary conversationalists, I oversimplified my explanation because I wanted to be sure everyone who may read it would clearly understand. No offense intended to you. Hawkrod

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Unconfusing The Confusion

                              >I have over 200 Ford parts books so it may take a while to
                              >find the right one but I have it!

                              >I am confused where you
                              >say "the 58 valve". the 58 used the 57 valve and then in 59
                              >they came out with a new one.

                              What I meant to say (or convey) was the B7A 9328-A was unique to the 1958 MEL production run (discounting its' origional use on the 57 F-CODE), and then was redesigned (for whatever reason) for the 59 and 60 run.

                              The below from your research;

                              B7A-9328-A Valve (vacuum pump check) 1958 Lincoln Mercury

                              B9S-9328-A Valve (vacuum pump check) 1959/1960 Lincoln
                              Mercury Thunderbird

                              372268-S elbow 58/59 Mercury exc. 2 door and 4 door sedan
                              58/59/60 Lincoln.

                              (The above 372268-S application call-out) means to me the only applications where the elbow fitting was used (unless there is more information in deleted text).

                              >While you and I are
                              >the primary conversationalists, I oversimplified my
                              >explanation because I wanted to be sure everyone who may
                              >read it would clearly understand. No offense intended to
                              >you. Hawkrod

                              No offense taken sir, and I meant no disrespect to your knowledge either. It is just important (to me) that this (forgotten information) be reintroduced in a clear and factual manner.

                              (FYI- Unless this was going to be one heck of a dedicated restoration, I would substitute electric )

                              BTW- A previous poster entered that he had found a B7A 9328-A and cataloging called for 1958 application. I challenged him and he recontacted the vendor and I assume the vendor then researched it and found its' origional application for the F-CODE. I apologize as I was misinformed. Your research (thank you) has cleared this matter up.

                              Comment

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