Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Del's Disc Brake Conversion

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #61
    This has been covered before. ABS Brake Systems makes a booster/master cylinder combo for Squarebirds with A/C that has the correct brackets. The stock number is 9787 and the item number is 270556931229. Your under dash booster will never give you enough stopping power.

    John
    John Pizzi - Squarebirds Administrator

    Thunderbird Registry #36223
    jopizz@verizon.net 856-779-9695

    http://www.squarebirds.org/picture_gallery/TechnicalResourceLibrary/trl.htm

    Comment


    • #62
      Del's Disc Brake Conversion

      Mike, I will give you the information regarding my '59 Tbird with AC disc brake/dual MC/Dual 8" power booster set up. As jopizz already said, ABS makes a mounting bracket manufactured to clear the AC plenum box, using an 8" dual power booster. Unfortunately, ABS does not sell that bracket unless you buy their dual MC/PB setup from them. When Howard Prout and I added this set up to our '59's, because we did not want to buy the ABS set up from them, he, being an engineer, designed and had made an adjustable mounting bracket which has worked very well for us, We used MBM equipment, and for a great part, parts from Rock Auto, using the discount they give us, or across the counter from any local auto parts store, to reduce the cost and we did. As for the under the dash booster, we just left it in place, and did not bother to take it out. It has not caused us any problems by doing so. Going back to the dual MC, you might want to order the version with the flat top on it, and not the bubble top. I have noticed that the inside of my hood was hitting the retaining bar on top of the bubble top...

      Ray Clark - Squarebirds Administrator
      '59 Tbird "The Yellow Rose Of Texas" aka "Tweety Bird"
      "It's Hip To Be Square"
      Thunderbird Registry #33025 VTCI #11178

      Contact me via Private Message for my email address, or (Cell) 210-875-1411 (Home) 210-674-5781

      http://www.squarebirds.org/picture_gallery/TechnicalResourceLibrary/trl.htm

      Comment


      • #63
        Thank you for the part number. I can't get the ABS website to open on IPad, so will have to go try my laptop instead.

        Sounds like buying their setup is the easiest way to go, though not sure if using that means it will also require changes to brake pedal and linkage to later 1960(?) style too.

        Or, if it will fit if a 460 with tall valve covers is installed - and AC box retained. I doubt ABS can answer that specific question themselves, since it was made to fit FE-powered cars. Somebody here may know, but if so I can't find any discussions addressing it.

        Dakota Boy postings had diagrams from 1958 manual showing 3 different under-dash pedal configurations, yet it appears he is presently still using manual brakes with no power assist at all in his modified and built up 460-powered car.

        Have been looking at many (all..?) of his 460-related swap postings, since I am contemplating replacing the knocking 390 with a rebuilt 460 sitting here on engine stand. It has ported D0VE heads with roller rockers, so it requires tall valve covers that may interfere with ABS booster, or may not.

        If there are just too many downsides to a 460 swap (loses AC, really bad braking), then I will just use another FE instead. Would rather not build and fork out thousands on building another motor if I don't have to do so, though..

        Since the search function does not allow any 3 character terms, it is not possible to search the term "460" or "ABS" either.

        Instead, it is necessary to search using general terms like "disk brakes" and "motor swap" which yields 100's of pages of results, many of which aren't relevant to the information being sought. Gotta read 'em to find out for sure, though.

        So, I have been skimming the reams of post results from searches to see which might relate to what I am trying to find out. Dave had mentioned ABS, but you can't search that 3 character term on this site.

        Not too lazy too use the search function and already spent all day looking around to conclude that almost everything 460/Squarebird related is scattered around, primarily on Dakota Boy posts on at least a hundred different threads.

        But, other than a few posts of his related to brakes, I have not found any discussion anywhere that would cover installation of a 460 AND power disk brakes AND retaining the AC. BAnd Dakota Boy doesn't have power brakes, or intend to install AC it appears...

        So, I would like to search for posts with air conditioning, 460 and disk brakes all in them. (Of course many posters may use "AC" and not the full words...) Two characters...

        Is there some way to search on this site for searches to include two character terms like AC, PS, PB and three character terms like 460, 390, ABS that I just haven't figured out?


        Thanks, Mike

        Comment


        • #64
          Mike:
          Ray turned me on to idea of using Google to do some searches. I put in "squarebird.org" ABS and 460 and came up with these 2 items:
          http://www.squarebirds.org/vbulletin...p?t-11219.html
          http://www.squarebirds.org/vbulletin...hp?t-5023.html
          It's always an option when using a search for 3 letter items.
          Nyles

          Comment


          • #65
            ABS booster, etc.

            Originally posted by YellowRose View Post
            Mike, I will give you the information regarding my '59 Tbird with AC disc brake/dual MC/Dual 8" power booster set up. As jopizz already said, ABS makes a mounting bracket manufactured to clear the AC plenum box, using an 8" dual power booster. Unfortunately, ABS does not sell that bracket unless you buy their dual MC/PB setup from them. When Howard Prout and I added this set up to our '59's, because we did not want to buy the ABS set up from them, he, being an engineer, designed and had made an adjustable mounting bracket which has worked very well for us, We used MBM equipment, and for a great part, parts from Rock Auto, using the discount they give us, or across the counter from any local auto parts store, to reduce the cost and we did. As for the under the dash booster, we just left it in place, and did not bother to take it out. It has not caused us any problems by doing so. Going back to the dual MC, you might want to order the version with the flat top on it, and not the bubble top. I have noticed that the inside of my hood was hitting the retaining bar on top of the bubble top...
            It is good to know that I can use ABS ready-made stuff with my existing under-dash parts if I need to. That includes booster, MC and brackets or a whole disk brake set? I am in garage and ABS website does not come up on my IPad.

            Also glad you mentioned the flat cover MC fitting better and I don't really mind paying for the ABS stuff if it fits for sure, or flat topped fully- chromed MC for that matter. Just don't want to buy stuff that ain't gonna fit.

            Are there diagrams of the brackets you made anywhere on the site? Know if anyone has tried them with 460 swap and AC?

            If I spend a grand or two on R&P steering and disk brakes, but don't have to build another motor, I am still getting off cheaper than another motor build. With probably money left over for interior refurbishment as well. You can't take it with you..

            I should probably get a paying membership, since this site is the most pertinent one for me at this time. How is that done?

            Thanks,

            Comment


            • #66
              3 character term searches..

              Originally posted by Tbird1044 View Post
              Mike:
              Ray turned me on to idea of using Google to do some searches. I put in "squarebird.org" ABS and 460 and came up with these 2 items:
              http://www.squarebirds.org/vbulletin...p?t-11219.html
              http://www.squarebirds.org/vbulletin...hp?t-5023.html
              It's always an option when using a search for 3 letter items.
              Nyles
              Thanks, that possibility had occurred to me right after I posted and was going to try it (combining squarebirds and two-three character terms on a search engine offsite).

              But, then I got another reply that I responded to and now coming back again, here is your post.

              Glad you confirmed my suspicion though... Gonna have supper and then look them over.

              Thanks, Mike

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Brushwolf View Post
                I should probably get a paying membership, since this site is the most pertinent one for me at this time. How is that done?
                Thanks,
                Hit the Donate to Site button in the upper right corner.

                John
                John Pizzi - Squarebirds Administrator

                Thunderbird Registry #36223
                jopizz@verizon.net 856-779-9695

                http://www.squarebirds.org/picture_gallery/TechnicalResourceLibrary/trl.htm

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Brushwolf View Post
                  Thank you for the part number. I can't get the ABS website to open on IPad, so will have to go try my laptop instead

                  Or, if it will fit if a 460 with tall valve covers is installed -

                  It has ported D0VE heads with roller rockers, so it requires tall valve covers that may interfere with ABS booster, or may not.


                  Thanks, Mike
                  I have a 429 with D0VE heads and running a good cam and roller rockers and had no issues using stock valve covers.
                  A Thunderbirder from the Land of the Long White Cloud.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    429/460 valve covers and roller rockers.

                    Originally posted by scumdog View Post
                    I have a 429 with D0VE heads and running a good cam and roller rockers and had no issues using stock valve covers.
                    Good to know. Engine builder that built my first 460 said it had to have taller covers with the roller rockers he chose for the motor. He said stockers wouldn't clear stock covers. Poly locks on them stick up and interfere.

                    I have never checked because I preferred the cast aluminum covers and that engine bay is a 73 Mustang, so a lot more space is available anyway.

                    What brand roller rockers are on your engine?

                    Thanks, Mike

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Brackets for firewall booster on a 430 with AC

                      Originally posted by YellowRose View Post
                      Mike, I will give you the information regarding my '59 Tbird with AC disc brake/dual MC/Dual 8" power booster set up. As jopizz already said, ABS makes a mounting bracket manufactured to clear the AC plenum box, using an 8" dual power booster. Unfortunately, ABS does not sell that bracket unless you buy their dual MC/PB setup from them. When Howard Prout and I added this set up to our '59's, because we did not want to buy the ABS set up from them, he, being an engineer, designed and had made an adjustable mounting bracket which has worked very well for us, We used MBM equipment, and for a great part, parts from Rock Auto, using the discount they give us, or across the counter from any local auto parts store, to reduce the cost and we did. As for the under the dash booster, we just left it in place, and did not bother to take it out. It has not caused us any problems by doing so. Going back to the dual MC, you might want to order the version with the flat top on it, and not the bubble top. I have noticed that the inside of my hood was hitting the retaining bar on top of the bubble top...
                      After 4 hours of reading more on really old disk brake conversion threads, it seems to me that Howard's bracket design would be the one most likely to clear in my 460 swap, since the 430 with AC has more space constraints than the FE cars.

                      Does he sell the brackets? (I know they might not fit either, but would give me a promising starting point..)

                      Also, I now understand how the KH booster fits in the equation and can either be retained or removed, as with the vacuum reservoir tank. May remove them for weight considerations, if someone has the later style brake pedal and bracketry to sell.

                      What I thought I would do is pull the motor and trans, rebuild the front suspension, convert to Del's disk brake setup (except leave the booster and MC for last in case Howard's 430 type brackets won't clear a 460, or an 8" booster still just won't fit..)

                      Also plan on stealing Dave's genius Cavalier rack and pinion conversion idea at the same time while motor is out.

                      I am a pretty decent welder (did it for a living before college) and can document rack bracket construction and steering shaft pivot bracket construction, in case anyone else is thinking about using Dave's idea on a 58-60 TBird.

                      And as Dave is fond of saying, might as well do as much of the job as possible in one comprehensive project and avoid having to re-do hard lines and stuff like that again later.

                      Still have found no threads of anyone besides Greg having a 460 installed in 58-60, so I am probably on my own with that portion.

                      I think my Crites 460 Thunderbolt conversion motor mounts can be easily adapted to the TBird FE frame. Have a set of Crites Thunderbolt conversion headers that might work with a little modification too. And have a line on a recently rebuilt 70 TBird C6 for cheap from a 429 car (he switched to an AOD).

                      Dave, I know you recommend the 8" booster, but are still using a 7" booster on your 59 Galaxie and that car weighs close to what a 59 TBird does.

                      Yet, you say both your cars (one with 8" booster and one with 7" booster) have a similar brake feel and both function well. That would seem to indicate the smaller booster will work in a pinch, if space constraints just don't allow fitting an 8" booster.

                      Thanks for all the feedback guys. Sorry so many questions, but spending days doing research on what has already been proven to work can probably save me at least as much time in the actual installation and wastes a lot less cumulative time and money than buying parts that might fit, but don't fit.

                      Thanks, Mike

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Paid membership done

                        Originally posted by jopizz View Post
                        Hit the Donate to Site button in the upper right corner.

                        John
                        Done.. I'll start my own project thread on the car when I go to the farm and trailer it back here - and figure out how to post pics.

                        It is a white 59 with PS, PB, AC car originally from AZ, so it's body is pretty darn solid. Has a knocking 1968 390 and slipping C6 in it currently.

                        Interior had been re-done by a PO in black vinyl, but is now trashed because it had mice in it before I got it.

                        Leaning toward putting it back to black and white interior as original and because it reminds me of a white 60 TBird with B&W interior that I had way back around 1971..

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Brushwolf View Post
                          ...Dave, I know you recommend the 8" booster, but are still using a 7" booster on your 59 Galaxie and that car weighs close to what a 59 TBird does.

                          Yet, you say both your cars (one with 8" booster and one with 7" booster) have a similar brake feel and both function well. That would seem to indicate the smaller booster will work in a pinch, if space constraints just don't allow fitting an 8" booster...
                          Mike, originally I tried the 7" dual diaphragm booster, then switched to the 8" dual diaphragm booster. I'm glad I did because of two truths; you want to use the largest booster that will fit and the difference between the 7" and 8" dual diaphragm boosters is significant, especially when you do the math.

                          Let's put things in perspective. You don't always drive with your gas pedal to the floor nor do you stand on your brake pedal every time you stop. These cars were produced with crappy manual brakes that worked, but just barely IMHO. Folks even pulled trailers with them, which makes my skin crawl whenever I see a trailer hitch on a Squarebird. When you need all the boost you can get, depend on the 8" dual diaphragm booster because it works well. There isn't much difference in outer diameter with the 7". We've been here before.

                          Our '55 Customline wears Granada spindles and brakes. Our '59 Galaxie uses Scarebird brackets and S-10 brakes. BOTH use 8" dual diaphragm boosters, now.

                          I took this project on because there were no real 'power disk brake kits' available for the Squarebird. Some kits claimed to fit but they simply did not Just about every other car was covered but not the SB. I couldn't believe it so I jumped in with both feet.

                          After Howard designed the firewall bracket, we noticed that the ABS bracket is nearly identical as far as dimensions on, how far it raises the booster and how far it pushes the booster away from the firewall. Both brackets eliminate the need for further spacers, both work with A/C and both fit Squarebirds with MEL and FE engines. The firewall bracket would have been easier to design IF we could cut the firewall but we ruled that out. Think of the firewall bracket as an offset that tends to flex or straighten itself out under high pedal pressure. Any flex feels like pedal sponge so the bracket must be rigid.

                          You may have spent four hours reading our posts but we spent many MONTHS improving our firewall bracket. Ray's bracket was built to an earlier version. We tried purchasing just the firewall brackets from ABS. They wanted minimum order quantities of TEN at outrageous prices. Since we already have a diagram and two working examples, we dropped it right there. Besides, anyone with an OEM 1960 power brake system already has all the parts needed from the firewall bracket to the pedal. - Dave
                          My latest project:
                          CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

                          "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
                          --Lee Iacocca

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            I realize that a lot of time has been spent by many members over many years in upgrading and modifying their cars to keep up with modern traffic conditions. So, I do appreciate receiving the benefits of those efforts.

                            An old car afficionado all my life, but until I retired last year the cars still took a backseat while raising two families and remaining employed in a stressful environment, getting a graduate degree toward that end and just life happens...

                            Since then, I have had a couple health scares that made me realize I may not be able to do what I consider "fun" for that much longer. So, if I come across as "in a hurry" it is because I am more acutely aware than ever that time is running out faster than ever. No disrespect intended.

                            Ordered the Scarebird brackets today, but their website says they are about 3 weeks behind, so IDK if there will be a delay in that. Ordered all the other disk brake parts (except the MC and booster) from Rock Auto today as well.

                            Could probably have saved a little money avoiding shipping cost by going shopping for the rotors and calipers in nearby towns, but it's just easier to have the parts come to me and they usually don't stock a lot of stuff in stores that isn't sold every day, so it often takes two trips..

                            Will leave the MC until last to see if an 8" will clear the 460 valve covers. It is only a half inch more on each side over a 7", but like Stan at FPA says "a 1/4" inch difference can ruin your day".

                            I have Ray's very detailed diagrams that Howard created and can also likely find a 1960 booster with the brackets on it too, so one of those may resolve the bracket issue.

                            Have also bookmarked a couple chromed dual diaphragm boosters with MC and proportioning valve/brake switch already plumbed together for convenience sake.

                            My understanding is that I should use a 10 lb residual pressure valve on rear circuit, but that I could skip that component - if I add self-adjusters to the rear brakes.

                            Dave, did you remove the steering column on your 59 and 55 to machine the "D" shape to fit the Borgeson parts and if not how did you get it shaped correctly while it was in the car?

                            Looks like from your pics on the R&P thread that the rack mounts as far leftward as it will go and since that moves center rack attachment points off-center, you made a bracket attaching to rack center that moved the tie rod connections back to center.

                            Would be great if sometime when you have either car on a lift for oil change or whatever, if you could snap a few R&P pics underneath the car and post to the most recent R&P conversion thread.

                            Thanks again, Mike

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              59 convertible
                              I just received my kit from Scarebird yesterday. Ordered it end of last week.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                When I retrofit rack-and-pinion steering, I had the engine out so I could sit on the #2 crossmember. I pulled the steering shaft up then cut the tube and inserted a nylon bushing for my lower bearing. The rack gear already came with accommodations for the straight tie rods and heim joints that I bought from speedwaymotors.com. So, the new tie rods hug the back of the #2 crossmember much the same as the OEM tie rods did.
                                Originally posted by Brushwolf View Post
                                I realize that a lot of time has been spent by many members over many years in upgrading and modifying their cars to keep up with modern traffic conditions...
                                Actually Mike, I was referring to the time and effort Howard, Ray and I spent in the design, build and tryout for the FIRST firewall bracket. There were no suppliers for Squarebird owners, so we had to make our own. Then, came many power disk brake retrofits.

                                DKheld (Eric Taylor) was another very valuable pioneer in this but he used Granada spindles and brakes on his SB WITH his OEM 10" booster (designed for drum brakes). Those who had 'under the dash' bellows boosters were simply out of luck.

                                I keep writing about this wonderful dual 8" booster but I don't think you're getting 'where the 8" comes from'. Here is a two stage booster retrofit on an OEM firewall bracket:



                                Notice:
                                • It has 2" spacers behind the booster because of hole-center differences. The spacers could be shorter,
                                • The 'step' in the body of the booster (for the second diaphragm),
                                • The major diameter (10") is only at the flange, 8" is in the middle, then it tapers to a smaller diameter,
                                • How close it is to this FE valve cover.
                                Straight boosters are shorter and have no 'step' in the body:
                                Attached Files
                                My latest project:
                                CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

                                "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
                                --Lee Iacocca

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X