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60 T-Bird
07-15-2010, 03:31 AM
In the next few weeks, I will be dropping the 430 out of my 60 and off to the machine shop to see if it is rebuidable. So far everything has been frozen solid. The carb looked like it came from the under world of Jaque Cousteau. The builder told me the 430's are uncommon and difficult and pricey for parts. He suggested a different engine. If it turns out not being able to be rebuilt, is it that hard to mount a 390 in there?

jopizz
07-15-2010, 11:35 AM
I know the 430 motor mounts are different. I thought they were welded in place but I could be mistaken. Anyway I don't think the parts are that much harder to find as most were used on later model Lincolns.

Colo66
07-15-2010, 02:06 PM
It is a major job installing a FE where a MEL lives. The motor mounts are different and the mounting bracket is welded in place. The transmission wont bolt to an FE so the mounts for that will need to be changed as well as another transmission and other odds and ends. There is virtually no performance parts for the MEL outside some FoMoCo parts that are rare. The MEL engine parts are available and the expense is in the pistons, about double that for an FE. The MEL was used thru 1967 in Lincolns.

GTE427
07-15-2010, 02:18 PM
Read thru the following thread, it'll give you some insight. There I attached some photos of the 430 engine mounting brackets that are welded in place. These brackets are bolted and welded to the FE engine mount tabs on the cross members on one end and welded to the frame on the other end.

http://www.squarebirds.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=6236&highlight=motor+mount&page=2

I've sent you a private message.

bird 60
07-15-2010, 09:36 PM
Hi Martin,

If it was me, I'd recondition the 430 even though the cost initially will be more than the 352.

(1) You don't have to worry about any fabrications to the Mountings or the Transmission.

(2) Once it's reconditioned you probably won't have to worry about it for a long, long time esspecially if it's going to be used as week-end car.

(3) The 430 is unique to the T.Bird with only a limited amount that have them, I believe 2,500.

Which ever way you decide to go, I wish you the best.

Chris....From the Land of OZ.

60 T-Bird
07-16-2010, 02:01 AM
I'll just keep my fingers crossed that the core is in good enought shape to rebuild...Thank you everyone

orwin
07-16-2010, 06:56 PM
I'll add my vote to keep the 430. I've owned a '59 with 352 and now have the '60 with the 430. The performance difference is night and day. The 430 has stump-pulling torque and could smoke the tires all day (even running on 7 cylinders with stuck lifter and a bent pushrod)!

tbirds8
07-16-2010, 07:38 PM
Gota say that 430 will even smoke a 390!!!

60 T-Bird
07-17-2010, 04:56 AM
Talked to the builder today and he gave me a tour of the shop. This guy is really a detail type guy. He told me even if we had to re-sleeve it, it would be rebuilt...to the tune of $6,000!

JohnG
07-17-2010, 11:11 AM
If an FE motor won't hook up to the tranny, can you guys tell us what tranny is in the 430 powered cars?? Most of the FE powered TBirds have cruise-o-matics (COM) but hardly all.

Since we're on the drive train, what rear end do they have?

:confused:

KULTULZ
07-17-2010, 11:34 AM
If an FE motor won't hook up to the tranny, can you guys tell us what tranny is in the 430 powered cars?? Most of the FE powered TBirds have cruise-o-matics (COM) but hardly all.

Since we're on the drive train, what rear end do they have?

:confused:



The 59/60 FE and MEL block bell pattern is the same...

CORRECTION- To be concise, that should read the 58/60 MEL bell pattern is the same as the FE. The 430 was redesigned in 1961 (LINC) and the bell pattern was changed.

...and both the 59/60 FE and MEL BIRD uses the MX (a heavier version of the CRUISEOMATIC). The 430 MX will be calibrated differently from the FE MX.

FORD CRUISEOMATIC is the FX- LINC CRUISEOMATIC is the HX (TWIN -TURBO Dual Range)

The rear asm is FORD 9".

orwin
07-17-2010, 11:40 AM
The 430 uses a larger version of the Cruiseomatic. The case is about 1/2" longer than the 352 trans. Ford shows model PBB-M or PBB-AF. If the data tag is still on the side maybe it should probably say PBB 7003 M (there may be other numbers).

430s came with 2.91 rear axle standard.

JohnG
07-17-2010, 01:30 PM
Thanks! Makes sense - more HP, more torque would require a beefier transmission.

KULTULZ
07-17-2010, 01:36 PM
The 59/60 FE and MEL block bell pattern is the same and

both the 59/60 FE and MEL BIRD uses the MX (MERC-O-MATIC Multi-Drive) (a heavier version of the CRUISEOMATIC).

The 430 MX will be calibrated differently from the FE MX.

FORD CRUISEOMATIC is the FX-

LINC CRUISEOMATIC is the HX (TWIN -TURBO Dual Range)




The 430 uses a larger version of the Cruiseomatic. The case is about 1/2" longer than the 352 trans. Ford shows model PBB-M or PBB-AF.

If the data tag is still on the side maybe it should probably say PBB 7003 M (there may be other numbers).

430s came with 2.91 rear axle standard.

Both the 60 BIRD 352 and 430 use the MX as both were considered as performance engines and needed the extra capacity of the MX.

352-4V PBL-AH (Different Internal Calibration)
430 PBB-M
430 PBB-AF

http://www.hotrodders.com/gallery/data/500/Cruise-O-Matic_I_D_7.jpg

LENGTH OF CASE

FX Small Size Case 9 7/8"L (CRUISEOMATIC DUAL RANGE)
MX Medium Size Case 10 7/32" L (MERCOMATIC MULTI-DRIVE)
HX Large Size Case (LINC 58/60) 10 7/8" L (TWIN-TURBO DUAL RANGE)
HX Large Size Case (LINC 61/65) 11.6" L (TWIN-TURBO DUAL RANGE)

partsetal
07-17-2010, 02:00 PM
I have searched for and sourced many parts for the 430 Transmission and it definitely is different than the FE version. Of course the internal calibration is different, but a quick check of the MPC in the MX column will show many if not most of the internal parts are different than the FE, not only in Part # but in size when the dimensions are listed.
Carl

KULTULZ
07-17-2010, 02:22 PM
I have searched for and sourced many parts for the 430 Transmission and it definitely is different than the FE version. Of course the internal calibration is different, but a quick check of the MPC in the MX column will show many if not most of the internal parts are different than the FE, not only in Part # but in size when the dimensions are listed.

Carl

Carl,

When you go to the APPLICATION CHART under 60S, how many differing trans options are listed under the heading? There are three in my MPC and all are identified as MX. Now it only stands to reason that a 430 MX is built stronger than a 352 MX. FORD isn't (wasn't) going to waste money where it did not have to.

Now if you cannot accept that both engines are MX equipped, although calibrated differently, then there is no further use in discussing the matter.

The original question was would the 430 (rated @ 350HP) MX go to the 352 (rated @ 300 HP) and the answer is yes.

Prefix PBL and PBB tells you from the get-go that they are built differently

Another statement was posted that the 60S 352 came with an FX. It did not.

It is not worth the argument to me. You guys post whatever you desire.

orwin
07-17-2010, 02:24 PM
Hmmm...

Further study of the Ford master parts book and VTCI specification book section 7.3.6 shows the part numbers for the '60 AT's as:

352-4v Cruise-O-Matic/MX PBL 7003-AH or PBL 7003-AG
430-4v Cruise-O-Matic/MX PBL 7003-M or PBL 7003-AF

That would imply they are all MX's just as KULTULZ says.

However, in the VTCI book there are also several photos and refrences to the HX used with the 430 (both 59 and 60).

The data tag is missing on my tranny but the case is 10-7/8" which matches the size for an HX.

Can anyone shed more light on this? Were HX transmissions used in some 430 birds? If it was a "field replacement" by a tranny shop sometime in the distant past, wouldn't there be a problem with the driveshaft length? Seems I'm not the only one with an HX.

KULTULZ
07-17-2010, 03:09 PM
However, in the VTCI book there are also several photos and references to the HX used with the 430 (both 59 and 60).

The data tag is missing on my tranny but the case is 10-7/8" which matches the size for an HX.

Can anyone shed more light on this? Were HX transmissions used in some 430 birds? If it was a "field replacement" by a tranny shop sometime in the distant past, wouldn't there be a problem with the driveshaft length? Seems I'm not the only one with an HX.

Now this is a very interesting find and one I have not had the funds (to buy period FORD publications) to verify.

When LINC went from HYDRA-MATIC to a BW designed trans in 1955, I have no documentation as to what exactly that trans was. I have long suspected it was the period MERC-O-MATIC Single Range.

When FORD redesigned the FORD-O-MATIC to the CRUISEOMATIC in 1958, LINC was a little behind. It's TWIN-TURBO Dual Range was released later in the model year (predecessor TURBO-DRIVE) . The case size was also uniue to the 58/60 HX as the 61 redesign was larger). I am wondering if there is a missing link in the MERC-O-MATIC design that was used solely on LINC after the MERC-O-MATIC Dual Range redesign. I would think the MOM would have a little trouble standing up to the 368CI LINC ENGINE.

So much for day dreaming.

In the LINC-MERC MPC (60/64), HX is cataloged under MX and the text points out the PN differences.

If the HX was actually used, it must have been the 59 model run as there is no mention of it in the 60/64 FORD MPC (that I have noticed).

BTW- There are two cases listed for the 60S MX, one a FORD PN (PBL) and the other a MERC PN (PBB). But there is also a unique FORD FX case listed also.

VTCI?

YellowRose
07-17-2010, 03:29 PM
VTCI book - Vintage Thunderbird Club International (VTCI) Official Factory Specifications (OFS) book or CD. Written by people who also happen to be members of this Forum, for that matter. Alan Tast, Past President of VTCI, "Fuz" Johnson, Alexander Sosiak, Lou Paliani, Immediate Past President, VTCI, and more contributed to the 1958-1960 Squarebird Official Factory Specifications. If you are a Squarebird owner, and do not have the OFS, you should. I happen to have a spare CD copy if any one needs one. PM me for details.

Alan Tast is one of the worlds most premier person of knowledge when it comes to our Tbirds. If you do not have his books on the Tbird, you should have! Nuff said...

partsetal
07-17-2010, 03:39 PM
I don't doubt that the 430 and FE transmissions are both MX. My contention is that they differ in more than internal calibration. For example, The 430 bell housing will bolt up to the FE, and it is the same depth. It will not however bolt up to the FE transmission case. The 430 cast iron case is not quite 1/2" longer than the FE case. The 430 tailshaft housing is longer than the FE tailshaft housing (Both 60 Thunderbirds) and it will not bolt up to the FE case. Look also at the oil pans and the filters. You can easily source the filter for the 352 Trans, but you would be lucky to even find a used filter for the 430. The pan gaskets are also different.
Carl

KULTULZ
07-17-2010, 07:26 PM
partsetal

I apologize for yelling (raising my typing). I have been ovulating these past few weeks and am on edge...

You are on to something and I am glad you brought it to my attention...



I don't doubt that the 430 and FE transmissions are both MX. My contention is that they differ in more than internal calibration. For example, The 430 bell housing will bolt up to the FE, and it is the same depth. It will not however bolt up to the FE transmission case. The 430 cast iron case is not quite 1/2" longer than the FE case. The 430 tailshaft housing is longer than the FE tailshaft housing (Both 60 Thunderbirds) and it will not bolt up to the FE case. Look also at the oil pans and the filters.

You can easily source the filter for the 352 Trans, but you would be lucky to even find a used filter for the 430. The pan gaskets are also different.

Carl

I now see what you are saying. Just the filters for instance- There is one for the small case FX, another for the medium case MX and now you are saying there is another filter similar to the felt covered filter as used in the 61/65 TWIN-TURBO.

FX- B9AP 7A098-B (Prefix Third Character A= FORD Corporate)
FE MX- B9MP- 7A098-B (Character M= MERCURY)
430 MX- B9SZ 7A098-A (Character S= TBIRD)

Even the 430 MX has it's own main case- C0MP 7005-R. Now this is a MERC PN so it must have been a heavier MX that was used in the MERC line also.

OK. I am now a believer. I need to source a 49/59 FORD MPC, an early MERC and LINC MPC.

Anything else you have to offer is greatly appreciated.

Again, please excuse my rudeness.

Gary

60 T-Bird
07-17-2010, 08:32 PM
It wasn't my intension for the thread to wander off so far from engine switching to transmission types...ok not so far as they are bolted together. I have decided to pursue the 430.

KULTULZ
07-18-2010, 12:36 AM
It wasn't my intension for the thread to wander off so far from engine switching to transmission types...ok not so far as they are bolted together.
I have decided to pursue the 430.

Well, I for one am glad it did wander as I learned something I didn't realize before.

I am also glad that you decided to retain the 430 even though the expense is more but I have an idea you are going to smile on that first mile...

JohnG
07-18-2010, 09:08 AM
So back to Square One: what are the major obstacles to rebuilding one of these, in terms of cost and also availability?

I'm looking at this from a hypothetical point in the future where some new person has just bought a Squarebird (or considering such a move) with a 430 and wants to know what he's up against.

I rebuilt my 352 FE 5 years ago and parts were absurdly easy to get, so I don't know what you guys face.

John

KULTULZ
07-18-2010, 10:07 AM
(IMO)-

Parts are fairly easy to get other than the correct pistons. The other problem is finding a machine shop that is familiar with one.

partsetal
07-18-2010, 11:17 AM
I did a rebuild on a 430 several years ago. Fortunately I was able to use the standard pistons. The cams were not available at that time and I had the original reground. The crank did not need to be cut, and I only had a valve job done, no inserts. I used an old time machine shop that I had used before, and bought many of the parts through normal auto parts sources. I don't have the total cost figures.
As a quick guess, I would say the 430 rebuild should be in the same price range as the FE with the exception of: Oil pump if you use the vacuum pump attached to it, pistons if you need them, Camshaft which I understand are now available but expensive, and perhaps a few other parts.
Does buying the kit make sense? I'm not sure, and I was hoping to hear from someone who had gone that route.
Through some diligent searching I'm sure there is a cheaper way to search for the mechanical parts needed for a rebuild. You probably don't need all the parts in the kit. Why buy 16 valves if two are burned and the remaining 14 can be refaced? Why buy the rocker shafts if the old ones are within spec? I see that the firm offering the kits also sell timing chain and gears at a price much higher than you could buy the cloyes or melling components at Auto Zone or Rock.
Shop around, work with your machine shop and get involved in the parts purchasing. That, I believe is the way to keep the rebuild costs down.
Just my humble thoughts!
Carl

YellowRose
07-18-2010, 11:34 AM
I moved this thread to the 430 MEL Engine Forum because I believe this is where it should be because of the discussion subject. It has been a useful discussion and I think there has been much learned about the 430 MEL engine and tranny.

KULTULZ
07-18-2010, 12:11 PM
It has been a useful discussion and I think there has been much learned about the 430 MEL engine and tranny.

Including controlling my demeanor... http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f210/jfredrick25/stick.gif

Listen, the oil pump that takes the vacuum pump is available @ EGGE (rebuilt or new) and OREGON CAMS is a nice guy to talk with regarding regrinding to a more modern profile.

ncbird
07-19-2010, 09:34 AM
found this craigslist ad and thought it might help someone. two 430's for 500 bucks
http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/ank/pts/1844131899.html

KULTULZ
07-22-2010, 08:42 AM
Further study of the Ford master parts book and VTCI specification book section 7.3.6 shows the part numbers for the '60 AT's as:

352-4v Cruise-O-Matic/MX PBL 7003-AH or PBL 7003-AG
430-4v Cruise-O-Matic/MX PBL 7003-M or PBL 7003-AF

That would imply they are all MX's just as KULTULZ says.

However, in the VTCI book there are also several photos and refrences to the HX used with the 430 (both 59 and 60).

The data tag is missing on my tranny but the case is 10-7/8" which matches the size for an HX.

Can anyone shed more light on this? Were HX transmissions used in some 430 birds? If it was a "field replacement" by a tranny shop sometime in the distant past, wouldn't there be a problem with the driveshaft length? Seems I'm not the only one with an HX.

I am having trouble now with the VTCI manual (although I am not familiar with it). It lists the 430 BIRD trans as PBL (by orwin). PBL identifies the FE MX of the period. PBB identifies the 430 BIRD HX of the period.

Not only did BIRD use the HX (59/60), but it appears MERC did in the same period. I am assuming an MX could not stand up to the 430..

partsetal
07-22-2010, 01:37 PM
I know what I know and also know what I don't know. What the heck is the HX transmission? The only reference I've ever seen for it is in the VTCI standards, and a reference to it here. Google does not even come up with it as a transmission, and I can't find it in my Ford manuals. Could the authors of the Standards meant to say "MX"?
Some help with something I don't know please.
Carl

KULTULZ
07-22-2010, 01:59 PM
I know what I know and also know what I don't know.

Well, you are a jump ahead of me...

What the heck is the HX transmission? The only reference I've ever seen for it is in the VTCI standards, and a reference to it here.

Google does not even come up with it as a transmission, and I can't find it in my Ford manuals. Could the authors of the Standards meant to say "MX"?

Some help with something I don't know please.

Carl

The FORD CRUISEOMATIC Trans Series (1958-1967 ) came in three different capacities-

The FX- STD/LIGHT DUTY

The MX- HD

The HX (also called the LX)- Extreme HD

The HX is cataloged under MX in the MPC. It is (I previously thought) LINC specific- well it was from 1961/1965) but have discovered an early version was also used on LINC, MERC, BIRD and possibly EDSEL with MEL engine applications (1958-1960).

I am searching now for period correct references for the 1955-1960 period to research it further. Thought I had it nailed down but I was mistaken.

GTE427
07-26-2010, 03:31 PM
Just realized that I had these images. The casting pic isn't the best, believe it to be MP 7006A. This trans came from a 1960 430 Thunderbird with a build date of 12-16-59.

YellowRose
07-26-2010, 04:51 PM
Ken, do you mind if I grab those pix and put a copy of them in the 430MEL Tranny picture gallery? I only have one or two pix of Tbird trannys so far and would love to have more. For those of you (which is most of you!:D) who have not discovered the NEW Thunderbirds & Big Fords Picture Gallery, You will find it in the General Discussion section down below, right below Our Rides.

GTE427
07-26-2010, 06:21 PM
Ray, by all means, feel free to use any images I've posted past or in the future. I also think there may be many photos that Bart has posted that may be of use, he was very attentive in posting engine photos during his rebuild.

YellowRose
07-26-2010, 11:35 PM
Hi Ken,

Thank you! I am using many of the pictures I have from Bart to display an original 1960 430MEL Squarebird. Also, I have his engine and tranny overhaul pix and am using them in the 430MEL Engine gallery. I hope ya'll are enjoying the new picture gallery. There are a lot of pix I could add to them if I had them! Just fire away at me with your pix and I will add them to the permanent gallery.

60 T-Bird
09-30-2010, 01:15 AM
Well...I thought I would follow up since I started the thread here. The engine came out and I still have all my body parts (mine, not the cars). The engine builder found one pistola slightly stuck and another totally stuck to the point after 2 hours of magic marvel oil and heat and a little drifting finally came loose. He felt that at some point someone had been inside since the cam and rockers looked brand new. the engine rebuild will be around $5600. It's on hold until I can drum up some work. In the mean time, I have a lot of detailing to do...

KULTULZ
03-22-2013, 08:40 AM
Please allow me to add this update regarding the TRANSMISSION Series used on the 58/60 BIRD.

(Posted Originally Within The Below Thread-

http://www.squarebirds.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=14727 )




Just a note here-

CRUISEOMATIC was mostly a marketing term.

While the FX (1958 to 1967) was actually named the CRUISEOMATIC,

...the 352 (58/60) BIRD came through with the heavier MERCOMATIC MULTI-DRIVE (MX - Dual Range) (PBL SERIES)

...while the 430 (59/60) BIRD actually came through with the LINC DUAL TURBO TRANS (HX - Dual Range) PBB SERIES.

The HX was again upgraded in 1961 for the LINC 430 only.

I will send diagrams to Ray.

This is info I have only recently come across and wanted to enter it within this thread so future SEARCH will see the correct facts rather than my earlier conjectures... :o

KULTULZ
03-23-2013, 06:32 AM
Just realized that I had these images. The casting pic isn't the best, believe it to be MP 7006A. This trans came from a 1960 430 Thunderbird with a build date of 12-16-59.

The CASTING I.D. NO. should read- C0MP 7006 A for a 1960 HX main case (C0MP was then a Service Parts Replacement for the 58/59 HX.

simplyconnected
03-23-2013, 04:36 PM
Martin, 90% of 'restoration' work is in de-rusting and preparing parts for paint.
http://squarebirds.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=3600&stc=1&d=1285823692
This looks far worse than it really is. I would save myself some money by marking (with a stamp) and disassembling the engine, bagging the bolts and parts in 'compartments', and stripping the block to 'bare' with no plugs. The machine shop can easily take internal and external rust off for you.

If you are stripping the heads, separate the valves, rocker arms, pushrods, and lifters together for each position. (Replace your springs. They cost a quarter each.) Same goes with pistons, rods and caps.

Count your parts as you hand them over and write the number on the receipt (xx-pcs received).

Take hundreds of pictures as you go. If you have questions, we're here, my friend. - Dave

KULTULZ
03-28-2013, 12:52 AM
Hmmm...

Further study of the Ford master parts book and VTCI specification book section 7.3.6 shows the part numbers for the '60 AT's as:

352-4v Cruise-O-Matic/MX PBL 7003-AH or PBL 7003-AG
430-4v Cruise-O-Matic/MX PBL 7003-M or PBL 7003-AF

That would imply they are all MX's just as KULTULZ says.

However, in the VTCI book there are also several photos and refrences to the HX used with the 430 (both 59 and 60).

The data tag is missing on my tranny but the case is 10-7/8" which matches the size for an HX.

Can anyone shed more light on this? Were HX transmissions used in some 430 birds? If it was a "field replacement" by a tranny shop sometime in the distant past, wouldn't there be a problem with the driveshaft length? Seems I'm not the only one with an HX.

There must be an incorrect entry in the VTCI. The 430 MX (cataloged under MX but actually an HX as all parts are referenced by engine series).

I will again ask Ray to include 60/64 MPC pages showing how FORD identified and cataloged the two different transmissions.

YellowRose
03-28-2013, 01:56 AM
Here is the information that Gary asked me to upload. I will also put it into the TRL. You can increase the size of the graphic by hitting CTRL and the + sign, decrease it by CTRL and - sign.

http://www.squarebirds.org/picture_gallery/TechnicalResourceLibrary/MX-HX%20TRANS%20ID%20%281960%29_1.jpg

http://www.squarebirds.org/picture_gallery/TechnicalResourceLibrary/MX-HX%20TRANS%20ID%20%281960%29_2.jpg

http://www.squarebirds.org/picture_gallery/TechnicalResourceLibrary/MX-HX%20TRANS%20ID%20%281960%29_3.jpg

YellowRose
03-28-2013, 11:45 PM
Here is some additional information on our transmissions that Gary sent me.

"It is confusing. FORD, for some reason, decided not to list separately (in it's own parts list) the LINC specific HX (LX) in their MPC (FORD - LINC-MERC - EDSEL having their own separate MPC), the HX being listed within the MX parts list (engine specific application). It (HX) came attached with every 430 BIRD, their coming off the same assembly line as the LINC (WIXOM) (LINC using the HX on it's complete line) (The 430 being LINC sourced - different calibration).

When you go into 60/64 MPC for instance, the C/M TYPE in A70.3 (third page I sent you), Basic PN 7005 (main case) is cataloged under 60 /BIRD (S) as B8AZ 7005-F (352 MX) and C0MP 7005-R (430 MX). The 430 MX is actually the LINC HX.

Remember the I.D. illustrations I sent you earlier (attached)? They are discerned from one another by case length and/or Assembly Tag I.D. (Ray's Comment: As I recall, the 430 MX/LINC HX has the longer case length).

the MX is actually the MERC-O-MATIC MULTI-DRIVE. It is the mid-case.

The 59/60 430 MX is actually the TWIN-TURBO HX. The MX was introduced in the mid-fifties and the HX in 1958.

The MEL Engine Series was introduced in 1958."

Hopefully, this information will help explain a lot of things about the Squarebird tranny situation.