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View Full Version : Tips on droppng 430 pan while on my back?


vernz
07-09-2010, 05:25 PM
Before I run my '60 430 much more I want to drop the oil pan and make sure the screen is clear. I need to do this with the car on the ground and I'm not looking forward to that. I know I need to jack up the engine and put a small block of 2x4 under the mounts and unbolt the pick up tube. Eventually, I will rebuild the engine as she smokes a bit, but I'd like to be able to drive it this year. Does anybody have any tips for doing this job laying on your back?

I had the pan off of my '59 430, but at that time I had access to a lift.

Also, I'm not usually into snake oil treatments for engines, but I've read some good stuff about sea foam. I'm thinking of running the engine with that in the oil for an hour or so before dropping the pan. Any thoughts on this?

Thanks, Vern

Howard Prout
07-09-2010, 05:47 PM
The book says the crank should be 14 deg. BTDC. If you have A/C be careful not to have the bell housing hit the plenum. Otherwise, it is straight forward.

simplyconnected
07-09-2010, 05:54 PM
I can't imagine pulling the pan without the front frame hoisted high on jackstands, and the rear wheels chocked. Even then, I give the body a good hard shake to judge stability. You need arm freedom to work with tools. I'm sure you know, from doing the last one on a lift.

You can use two methods to raise the engine:
Jack it from underneath, or
Lift it from the manifolds with an overhead cherry picker or gantry and a couple straps. It's important to use the wood as discussed.

Either way, the frame should be on jackstands. Ramps won't do very well because as you pull the engine up, the body will follow. Setting the engine back on her perches won't be as easy unless the body is solid.

I wouldn't use anything in my oil. If you can scrape & steam-clean, or power wash the engine, even though it's messy, do that because water won't harm your engine. I have used a garden hose on mine, just to wash metal chips away. Let it dry before re-assembly. If a small amount of water remains it will evaporate with engine heat, the same as condensation does in the spring.

The proper way to engine clean is to boil the block, which should happen when you rebuild it in future. - Dave

KULTULZ
07-09-2010, 08:58 PM
Before I run my '60 430 much more I want to drop the oil pan and make sure the screen is clear.

Also, I'm not usually into snake oil treatments for engines, but I've read some good stuff about sea foam. I'm thinking of running the engine with that in the oil for an hour or so before dropping the pan. Any thoughts on this?

Thanks, Vern

SEA FOAM - http://www.seafoamsales.com/how-to-use-sea-foam-motor-treatment.html - is a much respected product. The trouble with engine flushes is that they (it) will sometimes break a lot of sludge loose and subsequently block the oil pump pick-up screen.

But you are dropping your pan so you should (after all of this trouble) replace the pump and screen (Mellings) and of course clean the pan.

Make sure the road draft system is functional and some of the smoking may stop. Use a GOOD QUALITY 10W-30 engine oil.

partsetal
07-09-2010, 09:34 PM
The 1960 430 would have left the factory with a vacuum pump attached to the oil pump. If you still want to retain this for your wipers, then the Melling pump will not work. The only source for these pumps that accept the vacuum pump was Ford, and unless you can find a NOS one, you're out of luck. The Melling M-57 pump will work, but you lose the vacuum setup and I've heard that a modification to the pan baffle is required to use the old pick up tube. Melling does not list a pick up tube for this application.
Perhaps other pumps/gears/pick up tubes have been adapted, but I'm not aware of any.
Carl

KULTULZ
07-09-2010, 11:03 PM
Good Point!

simplyconnected
07-10-2010, 12:00 AM
10W-30 is no good by itself, either. Not even Mobil-1. If you buy oil with (..40 or more) in the numbers like 15W-40, it will have enough zinc for your flat tappet cam.

Check out Mobil's chart (https://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Files/Mobil_1_Product_Guide.pdf) for ZDDP content. We need 1,000 PPM or more in our oil.

The oil companies re-formulated oil to meet catalytic converter pollution requirements by removing zinc. Since modern engines use roller cams there is no adverse affects.

Classic car engines were built with flat tappet cams, to the old oil standards. Now, there is a problem.

I use Shell Rotella-T 15W-40, which is rated for diesel engines, and it far exceeds the API requirements for our classic engines.

You can use an additive to regular oil (if you can find any), which will boost the ZDDP numbers. I have seen "classic car oil" for sale at ten bucks per quart, which is a rip-off. Texaco and a number of companies make diesel oils that work great if the viscosity includes 40 or above. - Dave

KULTULZ
07-10-2010, 06:16 AM
10W-30 is no good by itself, either. Not even Mobil-1. If you buy oil with (..40 or more) in the numbers like 15W-40, it will have enough zinc for your flat tappet cam.

Check out Mobil's chart (https://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Files/Mobil_1_Product_Guide.pdf) for ZDDP content. We need 1,000 PPM or more in our oil.

The oil companies re-formulated oil to meet catalytic converter pollution requirements by removing zinc. Since modern engines use roller cams there is no adverse affects.

Classic car engines were built with flat tappet cams, to the old oil standards. Now, there is a problem.

Correct you are, but any pre-SM oil will suffice.

I use Shell Rotella-T 15W-40, which is rated for diesel engines, and it far exceeds the API requirements for our classic engines.

You can use an additive to regular oil (if you can find any), which will boost the ZDDP numbers. I have seen "classic car oil" for sale at ten bucks per quart, which is a rip-off. Texaco and a number of companies make diesel oils that work great if the viscosity includes 40 or above.

- Dave

You need to recheck the specs on ROTELLA as the new blends are low on zinc due to heavy diesel going to particulate traps.

From LINC FORUM-



Just came across this info from a AMSOIL TECH SHEET-

The American Petroleum Institute (API) and International Lubricants Standards Approval Committee (ILSAC), have mandated the reduction of phosphorus to extend catalytic converter life. However, reducing the level of ZDDP can compromise protection to engine components, most notably in flat tappet camshafts.

Current API SM and ILSAC GF-4 specifications for gasoline engines have maximum and minimum phosphorus levels of 800 ppm and 600 ppm, respectively, for SAE 0W-20, SAE 5W-20, SAE 0W-30, SAE 5W-30 and SAE 10W-30 motor oils. All other gasoline SAE grades do not have a mandated phosphorus limit.

I believe that they are just restricting the oils most commonly used in today's car technology.

Also-



In the Fall of 2010, a new oil spec called GF-5 is being introduced. The new standards will increase fuel economy and emissions as well as make it more compatible with E85 ethanol. Because experts say it will not have been tested in race applications, however, it’s critical that the engine building community is aware of the changes. The wear protection has not been lowered but the types of zinc and phosphorous may be altered to meet the new requirements.

“The current oil classifications are API SM/ILSAC GF-4 for spark ignited gasoline engines,” says Joe Gibbs’ Speed. “For the 2011 model year, GM is introducing dexos 1, a global engine oil specification for all GM cars and trucks. The new dexos 1 oil standard will require the use of synthetic base stocks, and it requires increased protection for catalytic converters compared to API SM. As a result, API is introducing a new oil standard – API SN / ILSAC GF-5. These new standards require improved engine cleanliness (more detergents and dispersants), improved fuel economy (lower viscosity base oils) and increased protection for three way catalytic converters (restriction on the type of ZDDP used).”

If your engines aren’t ready for retirement yet, it pays to pay attention to what keeps them running smoothly and efficiently.

From Tech Article (MUST READ)- http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Article/74002/race_vs_street_oil_and_lubricants_the_great_zinc_d ebate_continues.aspx

Also- http://www.zddplus.com/

Complete Oil Discussion Thread @ LINC FORUM-

- http://www.thelincolnforum.net/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=18359

KULTULZ
07-10-2010, 06:42 AM
The 1960 430 would have left the factory with a vacuum pump attached to the oil pump. If you still want to retain this for your wipers, then the Melling pump will not work.

The only source for these pumps that accept the vacuum pump was Ford, and unless you can find a NOS one, you're out of luck.

The Melling M-57 pump will work, but you lose the vacuum setup and I've heard that a modification to the pan baffle is required to use the old pick up tube. Melling does not list a pick up tube for this application.

Perhaps other pumps/gears/pick up tubes have been adapted, but I'm not aware of any.

Carl

Yep- C0ME 6600-C (NOT REPLACED)

I a$$-u-med that the FE pump would work. I am grateful that you pointed this out to me (and others).

EGGE REMAN SERVICE- (http://www.egge.com/OIL-PUMP-REMANUFACTURING)

KULTULZ
07-10-2010, 07:21 AM
SOURCED From- http://www.hemmings.com/hcc/stories/2009/05/01/hmn_buyers_guide1.html

Herb Scheffer, president of The Lincoln/Mercury Old Parts Store and a specialist in 1958-'60 Lincolns, explains: "Mechanically, this is a real 'stone crusher' engine. It's the same with the transmission--they will both continue to work, even when they're not in good shape. These engines have the same normal problems as those in other cars of the same age--sticking rings and valves, development of sludge.

"Most all of the mechanical parts you'd need have been reproduced," Herb says. "The valves, pistons, rings, bearings and gasket sets are still available, and you can get over-sized pistons, and standard and plus-.010, plus-.020 bearings.

"A few people still re-grind camshafts. There are kits to rebuild the power steering pump, the fuel pump and carburetors, and there are people who still redo rocker shafts and rebuild rocker arms. Other than today's Edelbrock carburetors, which resemble Carter AFBs, there are no replacement carburetors available today that work well with these engines."

Despite the general availability of parts, there are a few mechanical parts that will prove challenging or expensive to source,

...like the vacuum pump at the bottom of the oil pump, but Herb has been recreating some discontinued parts in small batches.

When it comes to upgrades, he recommends installing a PerTronix ignition system ("They're very forgiving on older cars").

Although few performance upgrades are available for the 430 V-8s, Herb has installed some ultra-rare 1958 "Super Marauder" triple two-barrel carburetor sets, along with the hi-po AC fuel pump he's recreated; the pairing bumps horsepower to 400 at 4,600 RPM. Herb notes, "This setup was only available through the dealer for both Mercurys and Lincolns, and the Lincoln air cleaner was slightly different from the Mercury version--I've made a replacement."

The Lincoln/Mercury Old Parts Store
888-500-9717
www.lincolnoldparts.com

NOS, used and reproduction mechanical, body and trim parts, restoration services

vernz
07-10-2010, 08:21 AM
After reading the string on oil and the need for zinc last year I switched to 20W-50. I found Valvoline VR-1 racing oil that has an added label that says "High Zinc, Great for push-rod & flat tappet engines". I've also been looking around for rebuild kits for the oil pump, but no luck yet. One thing I will look for in the oil pan is plastic timing gear teeth. If I find those I will expand the work I plan to do for now.

Vern

Howard Prout
07-10-2010, 09:41 AM
One of the things you may want to consider, given that you are going to remove the oil pan, is whether or not you want a working vacuum pump. If so, then check to see if your engine currently has a vacuum pump and if so, how well is it working? There should be a vacuum check valve on the left side of the engine block just above the lower edge of the block near the mid point. The vacuum pump should produce about 20" of vacuum at 2000 rpm. If it produces less than this, then you may want to consider rebuilding the vaccum pump (see the thread on rebuilding a 430 vacuum pump). If the engine does not have a vacuum pump, then you may want to consider installing one. My experience is that even when they are working to specs, they aren't all that effective, especially after the oil gets hot. The one in my engine produces up to 25" vacuum when cold but that drops to about 10-12" when hot. If you are going to install a vacuum pump in an engine that doesn't have one, you need a longer drive shaft from the distributor and the tube from the vacuum pump to the engine block.

vernz
07-10-2010, 11:02 AM
The vacuum wipers on my '60 work great, so I'm sure it's in there. Your picture reminded me of another question - In the past I've seen recommendations to replace the oil pump drive shaft with one that is more robust. What is the thought on that?

Vern

KULTULZ
07-10-2010, 12:51 PM
Your picture reminded me of another question - In the past I've seen recommendations to replace the oil pump drive shaft with one that is more robust. What is the thought on that?

Vern

There has been numerous discussions on the drive upgrade. Here is one from LINC FORUM-



In addition to the oil pump; replace your original oil pump drive shaft with this billet drive shaft from Precision Oil Pumps in Ca, (559)325-3553.

The original is literally as thin as a pencil and really isn't up to the job.

This replacement works for the MEL engines. It is an FE drive that is +.0375" Longer for Main Girdle Applications. This shaft is about .075 too long, but the MEL guys get them and grind that amount off the bottom (pump end) to make them fit. Just use a bench grinder. The shafts are $20.00 plus shipping.

Cleaning out the oil pick-up tube and mesh + the oil pan is a good idea too.

http://www.hotrodders.com/gallery/data/500/Oil_Pump_Drive-FE-MEL_Precision_Oil_Pumps_2.jpg

http://www.hotrodders.com/gallery/data/500/Oil_Pump_Drive-FE-MEL_Precision_Oil_Pumps_3.jpg

This modification is for the later MEL FE pump upgrade. The drive on the oil/vacuum pump is a different length (correct me if I am wrong please).

KULTULZ
07-10-2010, 03:22 PM
After reading the string on oil and the need for zinc last year I switched to 20W-50. I found Valvoline VR-1 racing oil that has an added label that says "High Zinc, Great for push-rod & flat tappet engines". I've also been looking around for rebuild kits for the oil pump, but no luck yet. One thing I will look for in the oil pan is plastic timing gear teeth. If I find those I will expand the work I plan to do for now.

Vern

Just a reminder. Racing oil is not meant for street useage, especially at that viscosity rating. Racing oil does not have the additive and dispersant packages as does regular engine oil.

EGGE MACHINE AND SPEED lists a new oil pump that is unique to the vacuum pump equipped cars 1958-1960 (or they can reman yours).

PN P-312

vernz
07-10-2010, 05:31 PM
I actually wasn't looking for racing oil, but one of the posts last year on what oil to use concluded that modern 20W50 oil came closest to the viscosity of the straight 30W oil that the engine was designed to run on. I was convinced in that post to use 20W 50 and when I saw that the Valvoline oil boasted of having extra zinc I was sold. I actually didn't realize it was "racing" oil until I took out the container for this string. I have some of the zinc additive so I'll go back to non-racing oil and add the zinc. Also, I purchased one of the billet oil pump drive shafts for my 59. Even thought I talked to the people and told them it was for a 430 MEL, the shaft I received was inches too short. I never bothered sending back. Anyone need a 352 billet oil pump shaft?

Vern

simplyconnected
07-10-2010, 05:45 PM
Vernon, I hope your oil pan job goes smoothly. I figured you'd do it this weekend and I wish you good luck. Don't get hung up on all the side jobs and improvements. I understand you will overhaul your engine soon, so a good thorough cleaning is all you need until then.

I didn't intend on getting sidetracked with a discussion about oil, pump driveshafts, and seafoam.

When you pull your pan and wash everything, I'm sure you will know what needs to be done. 99% of any restoration is 'cleanup', and I'm proud that you're doing this job for yourself instead of hiring someone who is trying to beat a clock.

Take note of oil pump wear. If you see pieces of metal embedded in the gears, you will immediately know how much stress the pump driveshaft went through (and if anything should be changed). A standard OEM driveshaft got you this far and they usually cost around six bucks. ARP wants three times as much, but all driveshafts are bigger than the weakest link; that tiny rollpin that holds the distributor gear on.

I hope everything goes well, my friend. - Dave Dare

KULTULZ
07-10-2010, 06:58 PM
I actually wasn't looking for racing oil, but one of the posts last year on what oil to use concluded that modern 20W50 oil came closest to the viscosity of the straight 30W oil that the engine was designed to run on.

Vern

Depending on how a HI-PO engine is built, 50W (final weight or straight weight) is norm. That is the final weight of a multi-grade 20W-50. Cold start and the viscosity is 20W, and this allows an easier start and lubrication whereas a straight weight 50 makes for hard cranking and slow lubrication. When a certain engine temp is reached, it becomes 50, heavy enough to lube the larger clearances on a race only engine but much too heavy for a street engine (close tolerances).

10W-30 (or 40) works in the same fashion. You want immediate lubrication on a cold start and as the engine warms full protection.

scumdog
07-10-2010, 07:31 PM
I have used 20-50 weight in just about every car I've ever had with no problems. (maybe if I was in northern Alaska it might be different.)

When the motor is cold it is no thicker than 20 weight would be at that temperature.
When the motor is hot it is no thinner than 50 weight would be at that temperature

The best of both worlds.

I change it every three thousand miles and change the oil filter at the same time.

The 1970 429 Ford in my F100 had had a hard time over the years including some drag-racing etc and has at least 130,000 miles on it.
Yet when fully warmed up still has 55psi oil pressure at 2,5000rpm, when really hot and idling it drops to 30-35psi.

When starting on a frosty morning it does jump up to just over 60psi for the first 15 minutes or so.

BTW: I modified the pan to hold 7 quarts.